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Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2005, 08:36:46 PM »
Matt Ward:

As you surely found out, much of Liberty National earth-moving and routing was done with views in mind. Views of Statue of Liberty, the Manhattan skyline and the Verazzano Bridge. The requirement that many holes have tremendous views was clearly at the top of Mr. Fireman's wishlist.

To wit: they shortened the par 4 18th hole by 40 yards because otherwise Lady Liberty views would have been blocked by the clubhouse as you exit the green. In my view, by doing so they butchered the hole. At 520 yards, this finishing hole would have been an absolute BEAR, a finishing hole worthy of a Major they so dearly desire (keep in mind that the hole plays either downwind or back/crosswind relative to the prevailing winds). Adrian Davies, Director of Golf at LNGC told me that Cupp and Kite clashed about this one, but the views (Fireman's position, no doubt) won. No surprise, considering he's footing the $140 million bill.

Do you think Bayonne design was not so fixated on the views and that is one of the reasons it is better?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 08:40:15 PM by Voytek Wilczak »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2005, 08:40:01 PM »
Didn't they alter the 18th hole because it was originally sited on a toxic sinkhole?

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2005, 08:47:05 PM »
Didn't they alter the 18th hole because it was originally sited on a toxic sinkhole?

The word is that they had to adjust the height of the bunker next to the 18th hole by a few inches (!!!) because of regulations governing the monitoring well needed because of the toxins underneath. That change was given by Cupp in an interview as an example of complexity of designing and building LNGC.

I believe that shortening the 18th hole by 40 yards was a different kettle of fish and had to do with views. The 18th green (both existing and the originally planned) is sitting on about 60 feet of fresh fill - I don't think polluted land had much to do with shortening the hole.

Matt_Ward

Re:Liberty National
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2005, 10:57:49 AM »
Voytek:

I don't see the need for the final hole at LN being some sort of 520-yard monster. What I walked the other day is still a fine hole because the green is indeed a small target and the wind situation is one that still has to be faced.

In regards to Bayonne -- I would have to ask Eric Bergstol his intentions for the holes and the views issue you raise. Frankly, you can see Lady Liberty from Bayonne and you can also see the NYC skyline / harbor. I like what Bergstol did with the shaping of the course -- no doubt -- it is clearly created by man -- but the holes / routing formula is well done because minus the down-hill par-3's the qualities of variety are certainly present through and through.

It will be most interesting to play the final version and see if the play assessment meets / exceeds the walk one.

Matt_Ward

Re:Liberty National
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2005, 09:17:15 AM »
I understand that with the new PGA Tour schedule for '07 there may be a rotation of sites for the Barclays Classic which will be moved from its traditional June spot to one closer to the end of August.

In addition, the Tour is contemplating using other sites -- two of which may be across the Hudson -- Trump's new place in Bedminster and quite possibly Liberty National.

No doubt the full facilities for Liberty National won't be ready for quite some time but having such a location would add a NYC skyline vista and clearly be appealing to all parties.

The only downside -- Westchester CC has always been a first rate location and a superb test of golf.

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2005, 12:16:56 PM »
Another take on LNGC from a blogger:

http://jayflemma.blogspot.com/2005/11/liberty-national-golf-club-new-york.html

Liberty National Golf Club - New York City Golf in the shadow of Lady Liberty

Remember this name: Liberty National Golf Club. You will see it again.

Reebok CEO Paul Fireman envisioned a private club just minutes from Manhattan where wall street execs could play nine holes after work or cut monumental business deals in an opulent club setting in the shadow of the Statue of Liberty.

Oh...and of course there's that pesky PGA/USGA tournament every developer dreams of having too...and the top 100 rating.

After walking the course today with Director of Golf Development Adrian Davies (an old touring pro) and Marketing expert Josh Zeide, it's fair to say Liberty National will make a valiant run to host a high profile event - perhaps a Ryder or President's Cup. It will also make a ratings splash because it will fill its primary purposes well - it will be a great place for well-heeled business executives to conveniently play ay the end of the workday and it will look great on TV. There were some irregularities in the overall design strategy, but there were also some inspired moments. Let's review the tale of the tape:

Architects: Bob Cupp and Tom Kite. Bob Cupp has built a nice career building solid courses - he effectively blends building a great tournament venue and a solid strategic course to as much an extent as those usually mutually exclusive ends (in the 21st century) can be met. As for Kite, normally when I hear a touring pros name attached to another designers work it means one of three bad things. Either 1) the designer needs the pseudo-star power attached to a star player's name (as happens frequently in foreign countries) because (right or wrong) the client doesn't think his name has enough cache; 2) the pro is going to make every Joe and Jane Citizen who plays the course try to hit some impossible shot shape only the pro could hit; and/or 3) we're going to get a course designed in the penal school or runway schools of architecture. Lots of doctrine of framing, but strategy light.

Luckily, Kite was actually concerned with strategy too and some holes are excellent. Moreover the routing had moments of genius - particularly regarding wind direction. The first four holes run in four different directions and only two consecutive holes run in the same direction twice...once at 8 and 9 and again at 15 and 16. Also, the course runs out and back...it does not return to the clubhouse after nine.

The good about the course: They do NOT try to call it a links course as it is the far from links. The soil is spongy loam and will be more condusive to stick the pin aerial attack than a firm fast links playing surface. Even so, the soil was in excellent shape with healthy roots and good leaf. The nap was great length - meaning it will winterize well and should stay at a four and 1/2 star conditioning level.

The course gets four and 1/2 stars for setting also. Constant views of Lady Liberty and the seaside. It's very pretty.

Two holes that stand out are 12 and 16. Twelve, a 437 yard par-4 has design reminiscent of 8 at National Golf lInks with its bifurcated fairway and bunkers directly in the line of play. The 328 yard par-4 16th is drivable, but with water and sand in the direct line of flight, it's a perilous risk.

The par-3s are all postcards and offer interesting strategic risks. For example, in one case, fearing the water hazard on the left, the player aims right at a deep pot bunker on the other side of the green which puts him a worse predicament because now he's coming out of the bunker towards...you guessed it...the water hazard!

In a few places, there are some interesting chipping swales around a fistful of holes that will make for interesting strategic recovery shots. However, in a few cases, most notably 14 and 18, these areas are so small that I doubt many balls will filter and instead will be gobbled up by the bordering water hazard.

The restaurant, clubhouse, gym and any other amenities will be ultra-high end. It's $500,000 initiation fee and $30,000 a year after that, but you will have everything you could wish for from a genie in a bottle. No expense spared.

Things I wish were different: Soooooooo many holes are claustrophobic. With fairways averaging 30 yards, its frequently penal, tight and "targety" (was that English?). It will be difficult to hit them in a 30 mph crosswind. The greens are "medium" size to use industry jargon, which means comparatively they are really tight targets. Most do not have much undulation, although one (see below) is an excellent standout example of a crowned green with fascinating chipping areas immediately adjacent.

They moved THREE MILLION CUBIC YARDS OF EARTH!!!!! Good aspect - they needed that much to raise the entire former dump sight out of the water in the first place. It sits 50-60 feet higher than before the course existed. Bad aspect - the most interesting undulations are OFF the fairway...put those in play! Note: they are considering widening the fairways for ordinary play which would make for many more options, and fun uneven lies. Average players will need some extra room to play.

Also, despite moving all that earth, the entire sight only has a grand total of 60 feet of elevation change maximum. Last, you see Lady Liberty constantly, but it's never used as a target for a drive. How cool would it be to have a semi-blind drive where the only thing you see and aim for is the Torch. Then you crest the hill and there's your ball in the fairway.

Lastly, some of the holes are too long. The par-4 6th alone is 521 yards. One more par-4 exceeds 500 and sandwiched in between is a 628 yard par-5. All told, the course is well over 7,400 yard par 70...which means it plays closer to 7,800. (For a good rule of thumb, look at the par of the golf course, for example, 70. Then look at the yardage and add 200-250 yards for each stroke under 72 and you'll see how it will play if it were a par 72.)

I think the course would be fine as a par 71, but many courses are too enamored with showing the USGA and PGA that they can keep the pros out of red numbers.

Anyway, the course will successfully attract a solid membership who will get what they pay for and lots more. Its run for a tournament will be interesting to watch...it has alot of what TV golf likes...great aerial shots, a great natural setting and a tough test. As for cracking the top 100, I will bet it will make a great showing in next year's "New Private Course" rankings, but the rest is speculation.

Most importantly for day to day usage, If you are a rich flounder living in NYC with gobs of liquid cash and an insatiable golf jones, you may finally have a place to catch the ferry from wall street at 5:05 and be on the first tee by 5:35. The course will be tough on the pro, but may be even more punishing to amateurs. Bring more than a dozen golf balls...and your camera.

 

JohnV

Re:Liberty National
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2005, 12:22:00 PM »
Quote
Lastly, some of the holes are too long. The par-4 6th alone is 521 yards. One more par-4 exceeds 500 and sandwiched in between is a 628 yard par-5.

Gee, they don't have a shorter set of tees there? ;)

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National
« Reply #32 on: December 09, 2005, 12:25:56 PM »
I like Jay's tastes, at least as they are reflected in this writeup. I'm very glad he has started posting on here.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National
« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2005, 12:29:15 PM »
I like Jay's tastes, at least as they are reflected in this writeup. I'm very glad he has started posting on here.

George:

No he hasn't (at least not to my knowledge).

I found his blog and posted this, along with his URL.

Voytek
« Last Edit: December 09, 2005, 12:30:02 PM by Voytek Wilczak »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2005, 01:18:39 PM »
I could have sworn I saw a post by Jay Flemma the other day.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2005, 01:25:03 PM »
He has begun posting here.

Voytek - Are you associated with Liberty National?

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2005, 01:51:03 PM »
He has begun posting here.

Voytek - Are you associated with Liberty National?

SPDB - No, other than they are my neighbors.

Matt_Ward

Re:Liberty National
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2005, 03:36:10 PM »
First off, for all the people who bitch about Liberty National's overall length -- the extreme tees were only meant for the likes of the world class professional. No doubt the par-70 course is demanding and when the wind blows -- which it does frequently because of the site -- the challenge will clearly intensify.

Instead of people bitching about the total length -- these same people should simply move to a tee box that is relfective of what their game is about. At that point -- a true analysis can be provided talking apples to apples.

P.S. If there is any serious weakness that I can see from first glance at LN it's with the par-3's. Minus the short one on the back the bulk of them are fairly plain jane types.

Jay Flemma

Re:Liberty National
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2005, 07:01:54 PM »
Hey Everybody->

Really glad you guys liked the LN piece...thanksd.  To distill into a paragraph...its a nice place, but not to my taste.  It too frequently trades views of the statue for great golf holes and trades narrow dictatorial fairways and lines of play for strategy.  And with a par 70 playing 7450, its gonna feel like 7900 and thats too long.  But as we all know what makes for a course that appeals to the usga and pga tournament is frequently counterinuitive to solid golf architectural principles.  

Nevertheless, I really like Adrian Davies and Josh Ziede and want to see them do well.  Adrian may be an old touring pro, but he also loves strategy and Josh is a likeable hardworking guy.

The greens may actually be too small also, but its an niteresting concept building the course out of that swampy marsh (Hey it worked well in Jacksonville...).  It will fill a neded niche...getting people oput to play after work in NYC...now if we just had a PUBLIC course that did trhat..that's ahet NYC really needs...every dratted public course in NYC is sadly sub-par.

Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Liberty National
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2005, 12:37:41 PM »
Jay - when the snow melts, you should check out the neighboring Bayonne Golf Club, scheduled to open in Spring 2006. An Eric Bergstol design, it has uniformly drawn high praise at GCA.

Jay Flemma

Re:Liberty National
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2005, 12:46:18 PM »
I would love to see Bayonne.  I would also dearly love to see sebonack. (Sorry if I mispelled that)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Liberty National
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2005, 05:10:50 PM »
Shouldn't Liberty National, Bayonne and Sebonack be PLAYED before anyone offers their opinion on the merits of the golf course ?

Or have you all taken the Trump approach of declaring your hand before the cards are dealt ? ;D