Flynn's Redan Concepts

[Mark_Fine]

Sean,
The #2 hole at Somerhills looks and plays like a "redan".  It is one of if not the best of its kind out there IMHO.  
Mark

[Philip Gawith]

I can't recall Rich, but doesn't the Redan at NB also have a slight front-back slope in the green - is that not also a feature?

It would certainly make it that much more difficult then to fly the ball all the way to the hole.

[TEPaul]

I don't know about you guys but I'm going to be a whole lot stricter about what I call a redan hole.

It seems some of you are calling holes redans because they have a bunker somewhere frontish left and the green slopes right to left. The 4th at Hidden Creek is a really wonderful hole but I sure wouldn't call it a redan.

Flynn built a whole lot of par 3s with the same characteristics in look and play as Shinnecock's #7. But all those par 3s have a quite different play characteristic and concept than the best of Macdonald/Raynor redans. For starters it's very hard to get the ball bouncing in off the front approach of so-called Flynn redans because Flynn tended to "upslope" the approach so much. And furthermore I'm not aware that Flynn ever actually referred to this style of par 3 of his as a redan.

The best I've seen of the Macdonald/Raynor American cousins of North Berwick's redan (the original) are great holes (NGLA's #4 and Piping Rock's #3) but they look very little like North Berwick's to me. The most notable difference between the original at North Berwick and all the rest is NB's has a huge amount of blindness front and right due to that massive bunkered mound.

The redan may be the most copied hole and concept in all of golf architecture (God knows how many times golf holes have been referred to as redans by both their architects and others) but I wish that just once someone would actually do one that looked something like the original at North Berwick because as far as I know noone ever has!  

[ForkaB]

I can't recall Rich, but doesn't the Redan at NB also have a slight front-back slope in the green - is that not also a feature?

No Philip, THE redan has a much more than "slight" front to back slope--it's pretty severe and sexy.  That's what Macdonald picked up on, but it has nothing to do with being a redan in the "fortress" sense.  If Charlie had just called it a "Front-to-backie-right-to-leftie-slopey-greenie" my semanticism would have been assuaged......

Oh, and TEP?

You could have saved your carpal tunnels if you had just said:

"I agree with everything Rich Goodale said in post #22..........."

[TEPaul]

"Oh, and TEP?

You could have saved your carpal tunnels if you had just said:

"I agree with everything Rich Goodale said in post #22..........."

Rich:

In post #22 you basically explained the military meaning of a redan and how that may more appropriately apply to the design of a golf hole called a redan. However, I did precisely that and in real detail on this website at least 3-4 years ago. It's all in the back pages Little Richard, but today I will give you an A for Effort!  

Unfortunately, your description of how a redan hole was meant to actually be played, the expected shot to be used---ie the pretty famous "redan shot" explained quite often in the old days is pretty much all wrong.

[ForkaB]

"Oh, and TEP?

You could have saved your carpal tunnels if you had just said:

"I agree with everything Rich Goodale said in post #22..........."

Rich:

In post #22 you basically explained the military meaning of a redan and how that may more appropriately apply to the design of a golf hole called a redan. However, I did precisely that and in real detail on this website at least 3-4 years ago. It's all in the back pages Little Richard, but today I will give you an A for Effort!  

Unfortunately, your description of how a redan hole was meant to actually be played, the expected shot to be used---ie the pretty famous "redan shot" explained quite often in the old days is pretty much all wrong.

Tom

The only problem with your thesis is that you had not ever even seen THE Redan 3-4 years ago.  Up until then your only experience with "European" golf courses was Mallow, in Ireland.  No?

Vis a vis how to play the redan, well, what would we expect you to say (to paraphase Mandy Rice-Davies in the middle (as it were...) of the Profumo Affair), since the height of your average ball flight is roughly 4.7 meters.  They say that if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  Well, if all you can hit is a slingy hook, every golf hole looks like a redan...... No?

[TEPaul]

"Tom

The only problem with your thesis is that you had not ever even seen THE Redan 3-4 years ago.  Up until then your only experience with "European" golf courses was Mallow, in Ireland.   No?"

No, I've played all over Europe before, just not in England or Scotland before 2003.

"Vis a vis how to play the redan, well, what would we expect you to say (to paraphase Mandy Rice-Davies in the middle (as it were...) of the Profumo Affair), since the height of your average ball flight is roughly 4.7 meters.  They say that if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  Well, if all you can hit is a slingy hook, every golf hole looks like a redan......  No?"

I don't know what my ball flight or shot has to do with it---I think you can find the annals of golf architectural literature riddled with what the classic "redan shot" is---and it most certainly is NOT a high fade.  

But you are right and I agree with you if you're saying that basically no one has really copied what North Berwick's "redan" looks like. As to what it plays like, that's hard for me to say since I've only played it one time and I did try to hook it, and I thought I started it about 50 yards too far to the right and was totally shocked to find my ball about 10 feet behind basically a left pin.

Do I think North Berwick's redan is better than some of the others like NGLA's and Piping Rock? No, I don't, However, North Berwick's is certainly very different from those and it certainly is cool too, in its very own way. Somebody oughta try to copy it some day.  

[TEPaul]

Rich:

I think I mentioned this before on here and I hate to admit it but when Craig Ammerman and I got to the 4th hole's tee Craig turned to me and said: "Why in the world would a course have an enormous mound like that with bunkers in it out in the middle of nowhere?" And this was after we'd hit a totally blind shot over a mini-mountain with the sea behind it and over a couple of walls across fairways.

I said: "Craig, I have absolutely no earthly idea why there'd be a huge mound like that with bunkers in it out in the middle of nowhere."

Little did we know until we got back around by that tee that that was North Berwick's famous "Redan".    

Still today Craig says he think NB is his favorite course. BTW, immediately after asking that question Craig teed off and hit Mrs Majors in the ass for the first of about four times that round.

[ForkaB]

Thanks, Tom

You are learning, Grasshopper......

[TEPaul]

"Thanks, Tom
You are learning, Grasshopper...... "

There's no question of that Rich. Everyday I learn a little more about how inveterately obtuse some people can be about golf architecture no matter how hard they try to understand it.