[Craig_Rokke]

I missed out on some desirable golf outings up for bid on the recent Villanova auction. I did, however, come up with a  future round at Phila's Torresdale-Frankford. I haven't played much within the city limits of Philly, and I really wanted to try to get out and see more of Ross's work. I also remember
a local, well-traveled club pro included this course in his
regional "Top-10", citing T-F as being "one of the best straight golf courses" you'll ever find. Any one out there
familiar with the course?

[TEPaul]

Craig:

I'm really familiar with it (I once won their Kerwin Cup there with my long time little outrageous better ball partner Mike Nilon--the very same man who just RElabeled firm and fast conditions as "Prom Night" which I put on here as a thread and it was deleted apparently for being too suggestive! ).

In any case, what do you want to know about Torresdale, and also where have you been?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Craig

There isn't much within the city limits. The other private club is Bala(Toomey/Flynn?) par 68,5430y. The munis, Cobbs Creek(Wilson?) and its companion course Karakung in West Philly ,Walnut Lane in East Falls, FDR in South Philly, Juniata in Frankford and JF Byrne in the Northeast are a mix of courses in varying condition and are managed by Meadowbrook Golf. Take a look at Ran's profile of Walnut Lane(Findlay) in Courses by Country. There is a newer public course in the Northeast on Red Lion Road, Island Green. That's it.
T-F, par 70, 6400y is generally recognized as the leader of the pack although, if the politics ever get fixed, Cobbs Creek, when restored/renovated, would probably rise to the top.  
I'll be playing T-F for the first time in an outing next year.

Steve

[mike_malone]

I have played it 4 or 5 times;there is a truly fine course somewhere within the trees.

[mike_malone]

 The statement about T-F being a great straight course gets to the heart of the matter. Unfortunately, as time goes by trees get planted on each side and take away the recovery angles. Much of what I see that is wonderful on this course is at the greens. IT IS NECESSARY TO BRING BACK THE SHOTS FROM OFFLINE TO THE GREENS.


 Just one example to start---#3 could be one of the best holes in the area. The green is elevated and has serious internal contouring. There are bunkers right and left by the green. But the left side has been taken out of play by trees in the landing area.Remove those and you leave the golfer with a thrilling shot up the hill over the bunkers from out of the rough.

   A few views of the original routing show many bunkers that have been replaced by trees and many overcome by trees.

    The variety of slopes just in the first four or five holes makes the course stand out in the region.

[mike_malone]

 I think the #8 green used to be short of the water. I think they should put it back. There are several holes where the green is just over the water;it can get repetitive. This would bring to the player a different look. Also, while I enjoy #6-#7-#8--back to back to back, I think the original idea is better. Maybe it was a drainage issue,but I suspect that it was tinkering.

[Craig_Rokke]

Thanks for the responses. Glad to hear it's at least worth taking a look at.

"Prom Night"="Fast and Firm" --good analogy! I can imagine trying a bump and run, replete with tux and boutonniere!

I've enjoyed Cobbs and Walnut. While both are scruffy, there's
plenty to take in.

At Walnut, I was paired up with 3 guys, including a postman,
who replaced just his jacket, with a golf shirt. We get to the 16th and he says "I gotta take off." "Why?" I asked. "Just 3
more holes." As it turned out, I convinced him to finish up, and
he ran off to "clock out" when we were done. No wonder the cost of postage stamps keep going up!

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

I don't care whether the green was originally short of the creek on #8 or not, putting it there now is one of the truly worst ideas I've ever heard of. That golf hole the way it is now (and perhaps always has been) is one of the top 3 really great and intense par 4s in the region. For years people who mention Torresdale almost always mention #8 in the next breath. Doing what you suggest at this point would completely gut the super intense concept of that hole which is frankly a really unique "go/no go" PAR 4s!!!.

Also saying that stretch of holes #6, 7, 8 is repetitive is really nuts. Those three holes are all long and straight but other than that their playing characteristics are different. In a tournament sense that stretch is a lot like some of the "three set" variety of Merion East's routing and surely no one needs to tamper with that true uniqueness. I can tell you from experience when you play tournament golf on Torresdale that three hole stretch is always somewhere in the back of your mind and you do feel birdies are more necessary on the shorter holes to get ready for those three holes or to make up for them!! The other holes that are always in the back of your mind are #3, 11 and 14!

[Mike_Cirba]

Donald Ross put the green on #8 behind the creek after first placing it in front.  

He asked the members which they preferred and like most of us masochists, they chose the tougher play.

Only a small handful of holes at TF are different than what Ross built...the par five on the back nine, as well as 17 & 18 that changed due to highway expansion, although 18 plays to the original green.  That work was done by the Gordons in the late 50s, early 60s.

There are too many trees, yes, but Craig...you'll really enjoy.

[TEPaul]

If Torresdale was to go on a tree removal program they really would need to be very careful where they did it. They could do it on the side of the holes that face inward to the course but if they started removing trees on holes whose sides flank the periphery of the property they could create a virtual visual disaster. This is also true on courses such as Rolling Green, Manufacturers and a number of others in crowded areas that today look nothing like the surrounding areas when those courses were built.

[Craig_Rokke]

I think the #8 green used to be short of the water. I think they should put it back. There are several holes where the green is just over the water;it can get repetitive. This would bring to the player a different look. Also, while I enjoy #6-#7-#8--back to back to back, I think the original idea is better. Maybe it was a drainage issue,but I suspect that it was tinkering.

A year after winning a round at T-F, I finally made it out today. It was well worth the wait.

I agree with a lot of the commentary on careful tree removal.
In some places, it could help, but it would have to be very well thought out.

The 8th hole green placement also generated some discussion.
Personally, I would keep it where it is, even if it is similar to some others, with its positioning just beyond that creek. It offers a knee-knocker of an approach shot that I appreciated.

It really is a "straight-hole"-type of course, with little in the way of doglegs, or pronounced angles. But that doesn't prevent it from being interesting or requiring careful thought
and execution.

I also found the set of par 3's to be a fun group.

If you ever get a chance to play this course, by all means, take advantage. It provides plenty of challenge despite
its modest length.

[Adam_Messix]

The one thing that stood out about T-F was the severity of several of the greens.  Not necessarily in pitch from back to front, but some of the internal slopes given the size of the greens.  I think it's #3 or 4 that was most notable.  With that in mind, T-F is an excellent course.  Don't let the total yardage fool you, there are several really long par four holes, particularly #7 and 8.  The eighth hole, along with the finisher, are most in need of a chainsaw.  There's a hole on the back nine (like the 13th)where the cart path just over the green is out of bounds.  Definitely worth seeing if you're in the North part of Philadelphia.  

[TEPaul]

Craig:

Isn't that interesting that T-F is referred to as a straight course? As well as I know it and as many times as I've played there I've never thought of that. Other than perhaps #5 and certainly #18 (clearly the nonsensical, wedged-in, odd-ball hole on that course) it certainly is a straight course. I guess Ross, being as good as he was, clearly recognized if he tried to "turn" some of those holes and go for some "triangulation" on that ultra cramped T-F site he just might find the green on say #13 was out in the showroom of some contiguous Cheverolet dealership or something.  

[Craig_Rokke]

Good points, Adam. The par 70 layout does play longer than its length. Some long par 4's , as you mentioned, and several
of the par threes are about 180 or longer.

[Craig_Rokke]

Craig:

Isn't that interesting that T-F is referred to as a straight course? As well as I know it and as many times as I've played there I've never thought of that. Other than perhaps #5 and certainly #18 (clearly the nonsensical, wedged-in, odd-ball hole on that course) it certainly is a straight course. I guess Ross, being as good as he was, clearly recognized if he tried to "turn" some of those holes and go for some "triangulation" on that ultra cramped T-F site he just might find the green on say #13 was out in the showroom of some contiguous Cheverolet dealership or something.  

or on the airport tarmack!

Adam's comments on the green contouring reminded me that I had several putts with huge breaks, and of course, staying below the hole is a good plan for T-F.

[TEPaul]

Craig:

A couple of those par 3s really are interesting and good. Somehow I don't think #9 green is Ross (or #17 for that matter) but it's very tricky to play even with a 6-7 iron. #11 is a good and dangerous hole that sort of gets in your head early and #14 is something else---if you come away with a par on that one you definitely feel you've picked up a shot or so on most of the rest of the field. (In one of the big GAP tournaments I think Sigel knocked it right in the hole on that one! ).

Interestingly, as slopy as a few of those T-F greens are that course has always had a reputation for very fast greens, believe it or not.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I played there in an outing in September, just before the greens were to be aerated. The greens were slowed down quite a bit due to the hot and humid summer and were not as treacherous as advertised by my friends who have played there. Someone described T-F as "the longest short course in the area."

[Craig_Rokke]

As I think about playing there today, one of the subtleties
that appealed to me was simply the "look" of the the holes
from the tee boxes and from approach shot areas. That may sound rather vague, but I'll try to explain.

I think the appeal to me, lies in a very natural(there's that word again) use of the land. There's almost always something of interest between the golfer, and where the ball needs to go, be it a gaping creek, interesting folds in the terrain,
drastic rises and falls, or the mystery of what lies beyond
a blind shot over a rise. In most cases, it never looks tricked up, or artificial.

The look of the green sites held appeal for me as well, whether
the greens were shelved into a hillside, hemmed in by
muscular surrounds, or protected by several well-positioned,
gaping bunkers. Despite the semi-straight nature of many of the holes, the golfer is often given varied, interesting looks.

[mike_malone]

 Craig,
    I'm glad you enjoyed it.

     I think another charm is the routing. The first three holes are par fours , but the greens are #1 a small disk on it's side; #2 a slope from front to back with a blindness from the landing area ;and #3 a wonderful internal contouring sitting on the top of a ridge. At this point I am beginning to think "no formula here!"

   Then  #5 is that short dogleg left hole one always loves with the green angled between the bunkers and set on a hill. Then you have those 3 long tough holes in a row."Which course does this remind me of ? None! "

  The back has 3 threes ,3 fours , and 3 fives. Of course this is because of the widening of Grant Ave. ,but nonetheless I love the result. At no time do I feel like I know what is coming next.

  The tree removal would only open up options that were wonderfully designed .

       When I think about it TF  probably has the most fun set of par fours of any Ross I have played in Philly.

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