Courses with non-returning nines vs. returning nines

[Robert Thompson]

I recently had an interesting conversation with Canadian architect Thomas McBroom where we discussed the benefits of non-returning nines. McBroom said hardcore golfers like the romantic allure of non-returning nines and that the concept also is more true to the nature of the game. He said returning nines often compromise the architect's vision by forcing a routing that returns to the clubhouse and might not otherwise be used.
He listed Augusta as one of the few courses that works wonderfully with returning nines, while most of the great British links obviously avoid this. Interestingly, in some cases I find links have to force their way back to the clubhouse, often resulting in weak closing holes.
Anyway, are courses with non-returning nines necessarily stronger than those with them?

[Jim Adkisson]

The returning 9 is an architectural compromise to allow for the fees for 9-hole play...Let the guy who only wants to play for a few hours, walk in from whatever point on the course he feels he needs to...

[Jeff_Mingay]

Rob,

I've always found it very interesting that none of Stanley Thompson's "big five" return to the clubhouse after nine holes.

Jasper. Banff. St. George's. Capilano. Highlands Links.

Although St. George's ninth hole was supposed to return. The clubhouse location was changed at the last minute. If that hadn't happened what is today the 10th hole would have been the ninth, returning to a clubhouse sitting where the practice range is.  

[Adam_F_Collins]

Our old Brightwood Course (W.Park Jr/"Ross") has a routing that brings you back to the clubhouse at the 8th. The 9th tee is right beside the clubhouse and the 9th hole is a long par 4 running straight away from it.

Lot's of guys only play 8...

[Mike Nuzzo]

The shape of the property has a great deal of influence.  Returning nines on a narrow property leaves little options.
It can be done will with a careful clubhouse location - not usually done for the golf.

Tom Doak has had some very good success with non-standard returns - seven holes at Pacific, I recall another layout of his that returns after 8.

Some recent examples of my own have a returning 8.  One I did fit a par 3 ninth near the clubhouse.  The other actually has three returning points - with options to play different hole clusters or triangles.  It is a large site.

An example of how it can work -
Seminole's property is a slight trapezoid, with each nine on one triangle - that will help - as well as an architect at his best - or so I've heard.

[Bob_Huntley]

It is interesting to note that Pebble, Cypress and both courses at MPCC have non-returning nines, Spyglass and Poppy Hills do. Could it be that the newer venues, designed for public access and competitions, placed some emphasis of starting a round at the 1st and 10th holes?  

[Tyler Kearns]

The returning 9 is an architectural compromise to allow for the fees for 9-hole play...Let the guy who only wants to play for a few hours, walk in from whatever point on the course he feels he needs to...

Jim,

While I agree with your statement, the concept of the returning 9 is also beneficial at private clubs, where most people want to play between 7-9 in the morning. Having returning nines, allows players to start on both nines, doubling the course capacity during these peak hours.

Jeff,

I was thinking the same thing....is it purely coincidence?

TK

[Marty Bonnar]

There's something really cool about getting to the turn at TOC and being so VERY far away from the Auld Toun.

Looking back towards it has to be one of the nicest views in golf, especially if it's either accompanied by the pinks and oranges of a glorious scottish summer's sunset or by a windswept cloudy, rainy afternoon with the sunlight glancing thru the clouds.

It gives you the chance of a brief respite to revel in a certain 'distance from reality', before the lovely long walk back into town (with it constantly in your vision) and the promise of a Pint to come!

On the other hand, I must also say that I really loved Muirfield's looping nines. There is a very nice rhythm to that which rather 'pleased my gait!'

FBD.

[Robert Thompson]

Martin: That's an interesting contrast -- TOC vs. Muirfield. I agree that both are outstanding examples of non-returning vs. returning nines. I wonder if the reasoning for this has changed over time -- in that it is often mandated by developers now, when at one time it was at the discretion of the designer.

[Tom_Doak]

To INSIST on returning nines eliminates a lot of possibilities in the routing -- or forces the clubhouse toward the center, if its site has yet to be chosen.

What are the odds that a layout of returning nines is the best possible solution?  Maybe one in five.  The rest are a compromise.

No one ever talks about it, but Sand Hills does return at the ninth.  We have always wondered how hard they tried to make that happen, or whether it was just kismet.

How many of the top ten courses return at the ninth?

Pine Valley, Cypress Point, Merion, National, most links - no
Oakmont, Crystal Downs, Shinnecock, Muirfield, Royal Melb (W) - yes

Those raters who insist on "balance" as a prerequisite to greatness usually have the latter courses just a bit higher on their lists than I would.

[Joe Hancock]

Tom,

I've not been to Sand Hills, but didn't the topography lend itself to a rather bulletproof routing, regardless of returning or not? I agree that the insistance of return nines would be detrimental more often than not, but some land is more forgiving of that requirement.....like Sand Hills maybe?

Joe

[Robert Thompson]

Joe (and Tom): It is interesting to see that golf architects tend to look at returning nines as necessitating some sort of compromise. I wonder if that answers your question, Joe -- that architects will generally feel that there would have been a better routing for Sand Hills (even if is insignificantly better), had it not returned to the clubhouse at the halfway point.
I have a problem discerning any issues with Muirfield's routing, so I'm sure it is possible to create a course with returning nines where that is the best possible routing....

[Bill Gayne]

Royal County Down is a links course with a returning nine. The front nine are as fine of a stretch of holes as there is in golf. I found the back nine disappointing especially from 15 to 18. I don't know what type of limitations existed when the course was built over a hundred years ago but the dunes appear to continue further up the shore line.

[Pat_Mucci]

Robert Thompson,

I've often heard the same comments with respect to the restrictive nature of the design with out and in routings.

Yet, something puzzles me terribly.

Why would Charles Blair MacDonald buy a piece of property that forced an out and back routing if he wanted to create the very best golf course possible, when he had the money and the opportunity to buy land with other configurations in the same area ?

[Gerry B]

add the following non returning nines to the list:

scarboro in toronto - plus youy have to play the par 3- 19th hole to get back to the clubhouse

myopia hunt club

medinah #3

BCC five farms east(if i remember correctly)

sheep ranch

[Neil Regan]

  Where there aren't crowds, an "out-and-back" routing can also offer various loops of less than 18 holes.

  On Ballybunion Old you can play any number of holes from 2 to 18 finishing very near the clubhouse. The 14th, 16th, and 18th are close to home, and you can easily re-route yourself  from the 1st, 2nd, 5th, 7th, 9th and even the 11th greens. It's a common practice every evening.

  On many links, such as The Old Course at St. Andrews, your options are limited to much simpler loops. Machrihanish is similar in this way to TOC. You can play 2, 4, 8, 10, 12, and 15 hole loops. But you always finish on #18.



 

 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Down here near the island, the West course at Belfair returns after the 10th hole.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Tyler Kearns]

I've always found it very interesting that none of Stanley Thompson's "big five" return to the clubhouse after nine holes.

Jasper. Banff. St. George's. Capilano. Highlands Links.  

Thankfully Stanley knew when to deviate from his published thoughts on golf course architecture, "The first and tenth tee should be at the clubhouse, as on crowded days both nines can be used for the first hour".

TK