Architectural Snobs?

[RJ_Daley]

No, I'm not an Italian food snob, but I am not totally in the dark on the subject.  My family ran a couple of Italian restaurants over the last 60 years and I grew up working in the kitchen by the age of 7 or 8!  So, I have a take that might not suck on the matter.

But, this may really be a good analogy.  I would put myself in the category of knowing enough (not everything) about good Italian food preparation techiques, and authentic southern regional Italian cuisine.  I will similarly put myself in the category of knowing "something" of GCA design and construction issues (certainly not an expert -but have done my homework).  So, I notice things in both areas when evaluating a joint or course.

And like what Calvin Trillan's {sp?} says, if you are looking for an ethinic restaurant in a strange city, go to where more than half the customers are from the local ethnic background of the ethnic theme of the restaurant.  Isn't that pretty good advice for golf courses too?  Not snobbery...

Going to the Olive Garden will get you fed, and not so badly either.  I actually looked into a franchise opportunity with them 15 years ago, when they first came to this area.  But, it is still corporate mass produced and commisary procured product.  It is cheaper than what a local family restaurnant could charge, it is good food, just not outstanding-excellent or demonstrating a true provincial-authentic and handcrafted approach to the food preparation.  

Going to some big name mass golf course designers gets you some of the same.  Good quality, easily digestable, but differs from the restaurant chain idea, as it is not usually cheap, nor does it have many of the handcrafted aspects that set some of our darling archies strive for.  So, if I'm in the area of say Pinehurst, I'm going to go first to a Tobacco Road before I'm going to a Fazio or Jones, because I'm not going to likely pay as much, I'm going to get a more handcrafted unique look, and the folks I know and respect say so.  And, I'll bet if the locals don't steer you to Southern Pines, they'll mention TR before say The Carolina, National, The Pit, Talamore etc.  Why, because they are the locals that know.  It doesn't have the corporate, golf company managed feel, like the Olive Garden.

[Matt_Ward]

R.J. asked, "Matt, your post is quite interesting.  I often wonder how you approach playing what seems like many days in a row on your trips to the hinterlands, scoping out new courses to evaluate.  Obviously, you go to the outback (like the western swing you have written about often when you were at Sutton Bay and various others out there) and fill in days by dropping by these other course you get info from locals about.  But, then do you play alone, or try to get paired or placed in a local group?"

To answer your question -- I often have to drive a few miles partner when making visits to certain locales in the USA. The key courses I wish to play can often be hundreds of miles between each other. I have no time to play the ordinary or lackluster layouts. I can do that in Jersey and frankly we have more than our share of dog tracks here.

Many times I'd rather play alone. Why? I like to take my time and inspect the whole course -- sometimes it requires playing multiple shots from different angles. When you play with a group the focus of the day often comes down to the chemistry of the people you are with and the social interaction can often take time away from really digesting what a course provides. Let me emphasize there's nothing wrong with the social dimension as I will play with good friends many times when home.

I often prefer to eschew playing with staff people because often these folks have been instructed by management to "sell" me on the individual property. Candidly, I don't need the hard sell and often times the hard sell is often an indicator that a prospective course is a bit empty on the design meter.

To be totally honest -- the issue is not about being an "architectural snob," but about maxing out the available time one has when playing. With family and civic obligations I don't have as much time as I used to have. And because of that -- I have no desire to pack my bags and play some inane layout that truly lacks anything that is memorable.

However, I never downplay the info I receive from local folks in the know. Many times if you want to know what the best fishing hole is -- you follow where the locals head. Ditto with golf courses.

[PThomas]

I wondered if Shivas was going to mention the fine establishment he and I had a few at yesterday......

yes, if you come to the Windy City you need to go to Cal's, on Van Buren , 1 block east of Franklin (i.e., about 3 blocks from the Sears Tower)

some of the charms:  sloppy, stuff piled all over, dimly lit, cheap beer, and various interesting-looking patrons like the lesbians who were starting to get somewhat physical at the bar. etc...

oh yeah:  and they sell "Packaged Goods" too!!!

[JESII]

Snobbery really comes in when you take your filet mignon expectation to a hamburger course and find it wanting in every aspect.

I don't see anything wrong with holding an acknowledged classic to the highest standards while fully enjoying a whack-around on the local muni. They are distinct experiences.

[JESII]

Paul,

two of your "charms" are quite interesting....cheap beer and physical lesbians.

What was that address again?

[George Pazin]

The best women look great in no makeup, jeans and a t-shirt.  All the makeup and fancy clothes in the world don't do a damn thing for them.

There was a young girl who used to work for me 2 years ago who you'd appreciate. She would come into work every morning looking like she just woke up 15 minutes prior, threw on some clothes and came to work (no sense getting cleaned up to print t's). She was gorgeous, a totally natural beauty. And I don't even think she realized it.

Man, I used to really look forward to coming to work back then.

I think you guys (Huck and Shiv, probably Dick as well) would enjoy a Saturday morning at my home course, North Park municipal golf course. I'm not sure what's more entertaining, the course or the golfers.

[PThomas]

JES --  I think Shivas liked the place so much yesterday he's thinking about using it as 2nd office location.....

[RJ_Daley]

Imagine the power in those thighs.  Now I know where to go in Chi-town if I need coconuts cracked.

[Brent Hutto]

This isn't architecture, it's conditioning but please tell me whether it is snobbery...

The members of my club are deciding where to go when our course is turned over to a housing developer in January. I'm sure someone among us will be moving to any club I could name within 50 miles but the majority seem headed to Columbia Country Club or Windermere. The two courses are located virtually next door to each other and just a couple miles from our old club.

Columbia Country Club is a 1960 Ellis Maples design with nine more holes added in the 1970's for a total of 27 holes. Member owned club, tons of members, very nice course, lots of local tournaments have been held there over the years.

Windermere is a 1982 P.B. Dye design with 18 holes. Private club but not member owned, 200-odd members, some water hazards and plenty of elevation change, housing development adjoining but not really close to the line of play.

Here's the "snob or not" part. In recruiting members, one course offers as selling points (among others):
1) Fairways overseeded October-March
2) Bent-grass greens

The other offers:
1) No overseeding therefore no extended transition seasons
2) TifEagle Bermuda greens

What's interesting about the comparison is that most people would think of a conditioning snob as preferring bent grass and overseeding. OTOH, in our area there's a constant struggle to keep bent grass alive whereas the TifEagle can be cut short for speed and/or rolled for firmness any time of year without worrying overmuch about stressing the grass.

I chose the no overseeding/Bermuda course because I love the way dormant Bermuda plays in the winter and absolutely hate losing several weeks of perfect golfing weather in the fall and spring to bare, soggy, transitioning fairway grass. I like putting on Bent as much as the next guy but only further north where it doesn't have to kept alive by heroic measures.

Now the choice of grass is far from the sole factor in choosing a club but just based on these comments, am I a Conditioning Snob?

[Sean_A]

Brent

It is hard to say you are a snob for either choice.  Sounds like both have their pros and cons.  

I would probably be more concerned about the club which is not member owned.  I don't like the idea of joining a club in which the membership has little control.  I would also be concerned about where my mates were going.  

Ciao

Sean

[Brent Hutto]

Sean,

Seeing as how I'm in this predicament because the owner of my previous non-member-owned club sold it to a developer who's building houses hard up against half the holes and only allowing home owners to be members (for like $500/month dues!) I'm with you. Member-owned clubs have their own political issues and this particular one "suffers" from a lot of members relative to the available prime tee times. But on balance I'm not real well disposed to get in bed with another  for-profit, sole-proprietorship club arrangement right now.

As for my buddies from the old club, they're hoping to go somewhere en masse but there's going to end up being a split either way. Generally, the non-member-owned course is a much better deal financially and awfully attractive in a lot of ways but not the easiest course to walk (much like our current course in that regard). The member-owned club is walkable like Pine Needles, if not quite Mid-Pines, and it sure looks like us walkers are going to mostly end up there while the cart golfers are mostly ending up at the other one.

That said, I also know some people at the club I'm joining so it's not quite like starting over socially. I feel a little bad jumping clubs without coordinating with the other guys but then again I've been planning this for months. The rest of them didn't want to leave until they got hit with a more-than-doubling of their dues. I was on the way out as soon as the OB stakes started showing up in places I routinely mishit shots into the rough and the bulldozers started clearing for houses in places I slice balls into the woods.

[EDIT] That's another way in which I'm a snob. I have little tolerance for plate glass bay windows in my line of sight and OB stakes one bounce from the edge of every fairway. If some resort course at the beach is that way I might play one round there but it's more like work than play when all your strategy reduces to avoiding repair bills from a poor shot.

[ed_getka]

Brent,
  You sure are picky?  You're on the verge of paralysis by analysis.  Good luck with the change, I hope it works out well for you. BTW, the decision would be easy for me if there is Bermuda involved, since I can't putt a lick on that stuff. Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

[Brent Hutto]

Ed,

Happy Thanksgiving to you, too.

The paralysis by analysis is all weeks ago, my application at Columbia CC has been in the works for a while now. In fact, I believe tonight is when the board meets to approve it so I should be playing there week after next. I'm just feeling like maybe-a-snob lately and wanted to check.

[William King]

Hendren Scale it is.  Hillbilly implies Barney inclusion.  I sincerely doubt Barney would give up the game for a week for any course.

 

That makes me kin to Barney. If I was made to swear not to play on the first tee in order to play (insert course) I might buckle, but I could easily forget my vow in four days . As for snobbery, the courses I play regularly have to have something to make me come back. But I still love going to a course I have never played just to see if I will think about coming back as I drive away.

[ed_getka]

Lou,
    I was just thinking of you and Mike N the other day and how I need to make it a point of coming down to TX to visit you guys and see some courses.

Brent,
    You are one of the last guys I would think of as having to worry about being a golf snob.

[Mike McGuire]

Playing the local goat ranch gives one a lot of opportunity to imagine how you would change things if you were asked.

Playing with hickory provides extra interest on any course.