[Mike Hendren]

If there is an Augusta bias on this site it's firmly against!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I have been to Augusta twice, never played it though.
To me 13/15 are probably two of the holes I would most like to play, certainly in my top 20 to play holes.
I know that I will not be going for the green in two,certainly not from the back tees,which is where I would probably play from if allowed, but the strategy of where to place my second shot just seems like it would be so much fun and the real challenge.
I personally dont care what the players in The Masters can do, they dont play a game that I rank golf architecture upon anyway, but I would love to play these two holes.

[Thomas Dai]

What really is a par-5?

I came across this quote from Harry Colt in the book 'Creating Classics - the golf courses of Harry Colt'.

"in the old days at St Andrews, before the rubber-cored ball was introduced, the man who could place his tee shot at the 17th hole between the corner of the wall and the bunker* on the left was in a very enviable position compared with an opponent who had driven wide to the left." - * - I presume the bunker he's referring to is Cheape's bunker.

From the corner of the wall it's about 280 yds to the middle of the green. A pretty long hit nowadays even with modern clubs and balls and fitness and physique and technique and folk these days sometimes suggest the 17th at TOC is a par 4 and and a half.

I wonder what 'par' on this hole, if such a thing had existed, would have been back in days HSC is referring to?

atb

[Mark McKeever]

Here is the look at a really great second shot at Charles River CC outside of Boston (Hole 16).  

The camera is held perfectly level for those who are scratching their heads!!

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Here is the look at a really great second shot at Charles River CC outside of Boston (Hole 16).  

The camera is held perfectly level for those who are scratching their heads!!

The 9th at Aronimink (D. Ross) is almost a mirror-image of the 2nd shot requirements of the above.  Depending on where your tee shot ends, you have to contend with a hill. that plays 1/2 way into the fwy from the right... lay up short of it... try to fly it for a flat, wedge shot into the green... or see where the ball bounces if you hit into the hill (purposefully or not).

Would also nominate Aronimink's other par 5, #16.  Where 9 is the "long" par 5, 16 is the "short" version.  Long tee shots should have no problem getting home in two.  Others want to play to about 100-125 yards out to the far right side of the fairway to take the large, greenside bunker on the left out of play.  

[Robert Kimball]

I sat in the bleachers right of 13 last year during Friday's round.  The hole location was toward the front of the shallow ledge at the back of the green.  Ironically, the hole was more accesible from second shots than thirds.  Players were laying up well right of the green,  trying to bring the ball in low to climb the small ridge.  Everyone came up short, except poor Greg Norman who went long.  Had the hole been front right, players would have played their second much closer to Rae's Creek to leave an easier pitch.

I hope you get the opportunity to attend.  It remains highly underrated.

Cheers,

Bogey

Splitting hairs here, but you can't mean Greg Norman was in tournament play last year? Did you mean Adam Scott? Just curious, and, again, very minor question.

-- Rob

[ChipOat]

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this is repetitive.

If that is the case, the second shot at Pine Valley #15 deserves another plaudit.  Because of that second shot, I think #15 is the single best par 5 ever built (#14 at Pebble is a close second because of the third shot).

The second shot at Pine Valley #15 is so wonderful because, for all mere mortals than aren't going for that green in two, it must be aimed at the left woods - anything hit towards the center of the fairway will roll into the trees on the right.  Even a properly aimed shot that is cut just a wee too much will come to rest in the right woods.

Even if the tee shot is up the left side with a straight line towards the far-distant green, the second must hug the left tree line in order to come to rest in the fairway short of the green.  It is psychologically demanding (especially if your usual "miss" from a fairway lie is a hook) and, if you tend to slice, you must really take dead aim at the pine trees.

Actually, the "easiest" play is for the medium handicapper who is willing to trust his slice (how many can do that?).

We have had previous threads on great par 5's and #15 at Pine Valley is always my vote.  As often as I have played it, it is so hard to trust your aim as being correct and swing aggressively with confidence that the left woods are far enough away that your shot will land short of the tree line and bounce into the fairway (unless you hook at all or cut/fade/slice too much.

I noted something about ANGC in another post.  Perhaps this is repetitive, but here goes.

For the Masters participants and very long hitting amateurs that get to play there, 13 and 15 are marvelous second shots for all the reasons we know.  However, for the average club player, including the members, the second shot is a lay-up.  Driver, 6-8 iron, wedge - not so thrilling, is it?

As an aside, the par 5 fourth hole at Merion during the U.S. Open was "better" from the "normal championship tee box" because going for the green in two was much more do-able by almost all the players.  The new tee box that lengthened the hole by 30 yards resulted in many lay-up second shots short of the creek by all but the longest hitters after near-perfect drives.  In fact, Mike Davis put the tee markers on the "members' championship tee box" on two of the four days.

While the second shot on #14 at Pebble is also a lay-up for the best players, the third must be so precise to that green - even more than on the back nine at ANGC, that I forgive that part of the hole.  Besides, for the average player, the second on #14 is not a lay-up AND the placement of the second shot requires precision - pretty much the opposite of #'s 13 and 15 at ANGC for thee and me.

[Tim Gavrich]

This is the wild and awesome second hole at Vista Links (Rick Jacobson) in Buena Vista, VA. I find it to be one of the best par fives I have ever played in large part because the second shot is incredibly compelling. The tee shot tumbles downhill and is likely to be the player's longest of the day.
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The second shot can be played short of the diagonal-running rock wall, but you'll be hitting a long iron or wood from a (usually) downhill lie. If you clear the wall, the ball will run down into short pitch territory or even onto the green. If you lay back short of the wall, your third shot is blind. Just a tremendous, unique hole.
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[Jason Topp]

Tim - the hole looks interesting.  Is right of the wall an option?

[Mike Wagner]

#3 Pac Dunes. 

[Tim Gavrich]

Tim - the hole looks interesting.  Is right of the wall an option?

Jason--

I'd say it's kind of an option, but the fairway is probably only about 10-12 yards wide right of the wall. Plus, the right side of the fairway slopes off to the right into some tall grass, which is a massive no-no. It is worth noting, though, that you can play a lot farther left over the wall than it appears.

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