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David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Updated: Long review of Maderas (Added final 12 holes)
« on: November 04, 2005, 05:03:03 PM »
Review of Maderas Golf Club – Poway, California

Since this is my first course review, I thought I would start out by telling just a bit about myself. I am a below-scratch player with an index that usually hovers between +2 and +3.5 or so. The only reason I mention that on this forum is so that you know a little bit about my game with regard to how a course will set up for me. I will usually play the back tees, so my reviews will be from the perspective of someone playing those tees. I will also generally play pretty well on even the most difficult of courses, so that will color some of my reviews. Again, I only mention this because whereas some will find a certain course overly penal, I might find the same course challenging, but fair.

Regarding my particular golf course design bent, all I can say is that I have few biases. I enjoy open courses, tight courses, short courses (Hillcrest Country Club in Los Angeles is one of my all-time favorites), long courses, hilly courses, flat courses, courses with trees, courses without trees, soft courses, firm courses, and everything in between. All I ask is that a course reward good shots and provide me with some level of creativity and diversity and at least a modicum of challenge.

If I do have one bias, I guess it would probably be that I am against an overabundance of holes where a longish hitter must lay up off the tee. Meaning, I don’t like courses where the fairway ends for no apparent reason other than the designer (or the superintendent along with the club management) decided to simply stop mowing the grass to fairway height. And this really isn’t even something that affects me too often, since I’m of modest length (275ish?) among good players. I just find it to be a bit silly to play a course with four or five holes that take the driver out play for a long hitter simply because the person in charge or the designer could think of no other way to toughen a hole other than to stop mowing at a certain point.

On to the course review…

Maderas Golf Club is a high-end daily fee course in Poway, California, an affluent suburb of San Diego. The posted green fee last Wednesday was $135.00, although my foursome played free because one of my buddies had won a coupon in a charity tournament.

The course was in immaculate shape. Overseeding had been completed a few weeks prior, so the course was pristine. The fairways and tee boxes were a bit “fuzzier” than you would normally see them because the mowers had not been lowered to their regular height, but otherwise, the course was among the finest manicured courses I have every played. The greens were also near perfect and running 9 or so, though they were not as firm as I would have liked them.

Maderas is certainly not a “rustic” feeling golf course. It is set among some very large and pricey homes, but that doesn’t really bother me. I don’t mind homes along a golf course, as long as they are out of the way, and not really in play off the tee. Would I prefer a golf course with no homes surrounding it? Sure, but having homes around a course certainly doesn’t mean I will necessarily hate the golf course.

Number 1 (4/394) is a reasonable par 4, with a small creek running along the left and then cutting across the fairway about 90 yards from the green. The hole is fair, in that it definitely opens up to the left, but punishes any approach that is right, since the creek runs by the right side of the green. One thing that I noticed immediately is that there was a nice “run-up” area in front of the green, and also some low cut collection areas behind the green – something that I really like. Another nice feature of the hole is that the driving area was ample, but narrowed the farther one moved up the fairway – a fine feature if used judiciously.

Number 2 (4/387) is another relatively easy hole with trouble left. The bunkers are well placed to frame the tee shot, and the approach is uphill to an unguarded green with plenty of room in front. Two easy holes to start out – something I’m very fond of. Allow me to figure out what my swing is doing that day and how far I’m hitting the ball. So far so good…

Number 3 (5/583) is where the golf course really starts to get interesting – I loved this hole. At 583 yards from the (elevated) back tees, it is long, but still reachable for big hitters (my buddy was long in two). The hole plays downhill off the tee, so longish hitters really need to choose a good line from the tee, since a well-struck tee shot in the 280-290 yard range can run through the fairway if it is just a bit left of center. On the second shot, there is a ravine that runs across the fairway about 75 to 100 yards out, requiring a solid, but fair lay-up or a very big second shot to carry the ravine up to the pitching area that is short and left of the large green.

Again I take note of the collection areas behind the green and nod my head in appreciation. There is nothing worse than just missing a green and being in the thick, wet rough. I wish more courses paid attention to this subtlety and made use of it on some holes.

A quick note on the greens. At this point I notice that the greens, while quite undulating, are fair. So far no ridiculous gimmicks or unfair slopes. Just tough, and generally very large, greens. Very nice.

Number 4 (3/172) is a simple par 3 with a hogback running through the right center of the green, allowing for a tough pin position on the right. But once again, the hole is fair, even to the front right pin because of a generous fairway-height area short and to the right of the green. There is also another fairway-height area to the left of the green, which is nice since if you’re short and at the center of the green, you will be in trouble in some brush.

Number 5 (4/487) is a tough, tough hole, requiring a precise drive and then a long-iron second shot. What I love about this hole are the bunkers that guard the left side of the fairway. Get greedy with your tee shot and try to cut off some of the dogleg, and you had better hit the ball a ton, or you won’t carry the bunkers. Lay it out safely to the right, though, and you will have a LONG second shot. Befitting a long tough par 4, the green is unguarded, which is a nice touch.

Number 6 (4/352) is another fantastic hole. At only 352 yards from the tips, it’s a 2-iron then a wedge for most players, or a driver and a pitch for anyone that elects a more aggressive play. And actually, driver is the clear play here for longish hitters because the hole opens up to the left MUCH more than it appears off the tee. Hitting a 2-iron or 3-wood here is actually pretty dicey, since it is so visually intimidating, with heavy brush to the left, and bunkers to the right.

The green is fantastic. I simply love huge greens, and this one is 50 yards deep, but very narrow from side to side. The green also has some areas that are canted to the back, which means that your approach wedge needs to be placed accurately, or you could wind up with a 30 foot putt, when you thought you’d have only a 10-footer. This is a great short hole.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2005, 03:01:55 PM by David Ober »

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Long review of Maderas...
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2005, 05:14:14 PM »
My review of Maderas is hole-by-hole, and it is long. In fact, I tried to post it here and was told that my post was "too long." Is there some other way to post a review?

Thanks.  :)

Post a third of it at a time - I am interested to read!

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Long review of Maderas...
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2005, 06:36:19 PM »
David,
  Just post a few holes at a time. What was your general impression?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2005, 06:36:46 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Long review of Maderas...
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2005, 09:55:51 PM »
David,
  Just post a few holes at a time. What was your general impression?

Very favorable.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Long review of Maderas (Added review of first six holes)
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2005, 10:40:39 PM »
Check out Barona Creek when you get a chance down that way out towards El Cajon. If you've already seen it I would be interested to hear what you thought of it.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2005, 10:41:15 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Long review of Maderas (Added review of first six holes)
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2005, 11:43:42 AM »
Check out Barona Creek when you get a chance down that way out towards El Cajon. If you've already seen it I would be interested to hear what you thought of it.

Definitely looking forward to playing Barona. Have heard good things about it...

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Long review of Maderas (Added review of first six holes)
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2005, 12:25:19 PM »
Here is a link to the website:

http://www.maderasgolf.com/

Neal_Meagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Long review of Maderas (Added review of first six holes)
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2005, 12:33:36 PM »
David,

It is really good to hear comments on Maderas from a better player and to hear how you approach playing each hole.  It also sounds like Troon is doing their usual job of maintaining the course to a high degree.

I was interested especially in your comment on the long dogleg left par 4 5th hole that features a rather large green with just a simple understated ridgeline entering from the front center of the green.  That, along with a quick fall-off to the creek that borders the right side meant that no other hazards were needed.  But, as I alluded to earlier, there were several cooks in the kitchen on this one and it was a real battle, a very real battle, to convince everybody that we didn't need anymore sand bunkers there.

I will look forward to the remainder of your review.
The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Updated: Long review of Maderas (Added final 12 holes)
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2005, 02:53:40 PM »
Number 7 (3/219) is a beast of a par 3 at 219 yards from the back tees. I butchered this hole and made 5, so I can’t really tell you too much about it other than the fact that you really don’t want to push-chunk a 2-hybrid into the barranca way right of the green. Seriously, though, it’s another excellent hole that is difficult, but fair – exactly what I look for in a long par 3.

Number 8 (5/507) is a bad golf hole in my opinion. Why? Because the driving area is too penal for even a gimmicky, short par 5. The hole is a severe dogleg right, with water short right, and then a giant oak tree that guards the inside of the dogleg. The problem stems from the fact that the oak tree is situated such that even the longest hitters can’t carry it, forcing them to go left of it if they want a realistic shot at the green in two – which should always be an option on a par 5.

If you try to take it left and PAST the tree to give yourself a clear shot at the green (the only way to do so, since being short of the tree means a silly punch lay-up under the tree), there is virtually no fairway to work with, so if you pull the ball just a hair, you will be left into the barranca.

To make the hole better, I would widen the fairway to the left at about 250 to 300 yards from the tee, so that a player could “bail out” to the left, thus leaving a longer shot to the green, which is very narrow, and elevated. Any shot that hits the green from such a spot would be a worthy shot indeed. The way it’s set up now, the best play is a 3-iron off the tee, then a 9-iron OVER the huge oak tree into the fairway, followed by a sand wedge to the green. Yuck. I don’t mind a 3-shot par 5, but give me OPTIONS. And more than that, give me REALISTIC options, not fantasy options that I could only pull off only once every 10 or 20 attempts.

The green is kind of cool, with the left side flanked by stone work, left of which is death. I really like the green set-up and the bunkers that are high to the right and just short of the green, but give me a chance to go for it in two if I want – especially since missing the green can lead to a big number. Don’t force me to hit a miracle tee shot just to have a chance for a go in two.

Number 9 (4/382) is another hole I’m not overly fond of. It’s an “island fairway” surrounded by water left and long, that requires a long-iron off the tee, followed by a simple wedge or 9-iron to the green. The hole needs something more, like maybe a way for long hitters to try to thread driver all the way up by the green, or possibly a nice pot bunker just short of the green. Or maybe a bunker set 15 or 20 yards short of the green for a little deception.

Number 10 (4/341) is a very nice short par 4 of only 341 yards, though it is uphill. I would, though, prefer more room to the right for big hitters to try to really let it go on this hole. As it is, the only legitimate play is a 3-wood or 2-iron up the gut just short of a complex of fairway bunkers. The green is very nice, though, sloping from front to back mildly in several places, requiring a well-struck approach for the ball not to go long and settle in another of those nice low-cut collection areas.

Number 11 (4/359) is a bit of a breather. The tee shot is slightly downhill, and the green is fairly accessible, with bunkering more for show than anything. A good birdie opportunity – something I’m certainly not averse to seeing a few times a round!

Number 12 (4/437) is a solid golf hole with a blind tee shot that is pretty trouble-free. The second shot, though, can be troublesome. You will be hitting from a downhill lie to a green guarded by water short and left. The green is one of the most severe on the course, so a 3-putt is a very real possibility. Again, though, the hole is tough, but fair, since the right side of the green (away from the water) is open and cut to fairway height. Anyone shy of challenging the water can simply lay-up short right and have a relatively easy pitch.

Number 13 (4/449) is another tough par 4, but with no trouble off the tee – which is a good thing since the hole plays longer than the yardage due to the uphill slope of the fairway. I don’t really remember much about this hole, which speaks to its appeal to me.

Number 14 (5/552) is a beautiful monster of a par 5. It plays about 600 yards or so, and requires 3 well struck shots for all but the longest of hitters. Befitting a long, tough hole, the fairway beckons for you to aim at the bunkers on the right side of the fairway and hit a big, long draw. Misses are playable here, which is key, since the hole plays so long. Very nice.

The second shot is basically a lay-up for most golfers, leaving anything from 90 yards to 150 yards depending on the player’s length. I hit driver that I pulled low left, then layed up with a 3-wood to about 110 yards and hit a PW onto the green that sits well above the fairway and is guarded by a deep (and scary!) ravine that starts high up to the right, and then crosses down in front of the green. What an intimidating approach – even with a wedge in your hands! I loved this hole.

Number 15 (3/253) is a great long par 3. In fact, I’ve played few better. The hole is significantly downhill, so it only plays about 220 or so. What makes it such a great hole, though, is that, while the tee shot is intimidating because you are elevated and worried about club selection and wind effects, it’s actually not a very difficult hole, since any miss even 15 or 20 yards to the right will kick down to the hole due to a bank the funnels everything toward the green. Short, and short/left is also a good place to miss, leaving only a simple pitch to a large green. Great hole.

Number 16 (4/453) is a long par 4 that plays shorter due to it being downhill. The tee shot is excellent because it is so intimidating, but fair – if you take the time to survey the hole before your tee shot. A ravine runs along the left of the fairway, and then cuts across at about 110 to 135 yards from the green, meaning big hitters will have to take care to not aim too far left, or they will drive the ball through the fairway (as one of my playing partners did).

The nice thing about the hole, though, is that there is MUCH more room to the right than there appears to be, and the slope funnels even misses to the right into the fairway. I love holes like that – holes that appear difficult off the tee, but really aren’t if you can concur your fears and aim at a less than obvious spot off the tee.

Number 17 (3/188) also plays downhill, and is probably the weakest of the par 3’s on the course. I would prefer there to be some trouble left here, since good players are only hitting a knock-down 7-iron or 8-iron to this hole, but there isn’t, so the hole ends up playing quite easy. The green is a good one, though, so that does make up for some of the lack of challenge on the tee shot. Overall, a pretty weak 17th hole.

Number 18 (5/600) is a great finishing hole to a wonderful golf experience. The tee box is set back deep in the scrub, and has a forced carry of about 220 yards, though it is downhill. The landing area is wide at about 250 yards from the tee, but narrows due to a nice bunker that is 260 or so yards from the tee. Very big hitters can carry it since it is only about 310 to carry, but again, downhill. Push your tee shot too far to the right in trying to avoid the bunker on the left, and then you have to contend with a large oak – a nice touch.

The second shot for most players will be a stand lay-up with anything from a 3-wood to a 5-iron. There are bunkers and barranca all along the right, but there is plenty of room to the left, and it opens up quite a bit as you get closer to the green.

The third shot is to a deep green (41 yards) that is bunkered to the left and long/left, with water long right. There is a generous run-up area in front of the green, and a collection area to the left between the two bunkers. Three solid shots will yield a birdie opportunity for good players, though as always at Maderas, negotiating the greens can be tricky.

I had a wonderful time at Maderas. I know that this group isn’t much interested in how people play, but I will mention that I shot 73 from the back tees (7115, 75.8/142) my first time ever playing the course, which means the golf course is tough, but fair, even from the back tees. All of us in the foursome (indexes between +3 and 0) enjoyed the course immensely if that means anything…
« Last Edit: November 07, 2005, 03:05:58 PM by David Ober »

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Updated: Long review of Maderas (Added final 12 holes)
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2005, 06:16:27 PM »

David,

      Thanks for the detailed and excellent write-up. I played Maderas with some other GCA members preceding KPI and we universally agreed with your take on #8.  We all enjoyed the  course but #8 is just a bad hole.

I look forward to more write-ups in the future.

Evan_Green

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Updated: Long review of Maderas (Added final 12 holes)
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2005, 01:27:02 AM »
David

Thanks for the detailed review. Curious as to how you compare Maderas with other San Diego area courses.