Greywalls & The Kingsley Club

[Matt_Ward]

Wayne:

Glad you can offer some additional jibberish about a course you know nothing about.

Allow me to clue in your 24/7 ignorance -- "under the eye range" is what you cannot see when playing blind shots and the like. The 18th hole at Greywalls does feature this and the area of the 20-yard zone does become an issue for me. Wayne -- re-read what I wrote on containment mounding and how such an effort serves to minimize proportionality in the final results of shots made. It seems you are too quick on the trigger with additional BS about "why Wayne can't stand Ward" crap and the like.

I never said my take is the only one that matters -- I did say that having a different perspective might add to the discussion of the 18th hole at Greywalls. While on the subject you might want to check out the comments made by Brad Klein on the course in question in a previous GolfWeek opinion.

But why bother getting off your duff to understand something or simply opening your ears to the opinions of those who do the heavylifting. Just lob the tired old verbal grenades -- same ole Wayne.

Wayne -- don't prove the fact that useless or gutter filled invective opinions is only half your equation -- oblivious to anything but Philadelphia area golf and William Flynn is the second part. Forgive me partner -- I was under the impression you acted in a class like manner. My error.
Wayne -- you're no different than the Phillie bums who "cheer" their favorite sports teams only when the ride is going well.

If you have nothing tangible to offer on this subject do yourself a favor and march to the corner of the classroom and proudly wear the dunce cap because there are plenty of people who lurk here who shake their head at your stupidity and mean spirited nature.

[wsmorrison]

Your arrogance has incited me in the past and after this I will not be forthcoming with any further comments about you.  I will disregard you in the future as it is best not to say something if I can't say anything nice.  

But I've never meant for any of this to be personal.  I can and do distinguish you as a person and you as a golf analyst.  On the first issue I don't feel anything negative towards you nor did I say anything personal except once.  On the second, your high and mighty self-image I do take exception to.  I can stand Matt Ward the person but I cannot stand Matt Ward the beligerent know-it-all.  You may not see it but you put down everybody that disagrees with you subtly or overtly.  I guess I am prone to doing it only overtly.

You basically told Brian (I don't know him at all) who plays the course regularly that he needs a fresh perspective to clarify his habituated viewpoint.  That takes some gonads.  You systematically belittle anyone else's point of view that doesn't match your own and your sole evidence is the breadth of courses you've seen.  That is complete BS!  Why can't Brian know what he's talking about.  He sure as heck knows the result of a wider variety of shots under differrent conditions on that course than you do.  When he contradicted your view with empirical results, you find a way to discount these as well.  Facts have no room in your view if they don't support your conclusions.  And yet you seek to inform/influence people with your conclusions.  They are one man's thoughts and leave room for others that may disagree.  When the other is someone that knows the course better than you--by the way, you yourself think highly of the number of experience, I think he deserves to be heard and not blithely discounted.

Getting off my old duff.  You are trite.  I may be contributing to the record of golf in a far different way than you; a legitimate academic exercise in the life and work of William Flynn.  Do you really have the balls to think because I sit at a computer and see mostly classic courses in that pursuit that it pales in comparison to your dillettentish ways?  I'd rather be part of the definitive understanding of one man's work than see 2000 courses and write superficial accounts and rankings.  But I don't begrudge you your pastime.  Have at it.  Aggrandize yourself and your endeavors but do you always have to put someone else down to do so?

"Wayne -- don't prove the fact that useless or gutter filled invective opinions is only half your equation -- oblivious to anything but Philadelphia area golf and William Flynn is the second part."

I think you should have a better understanding and perhaps appreciation for those others that work hard at something in the realm of your interest even if it is at a computer.  Let's see you research and put together a 250,000 word text on anything to do with a subject in golf.  I think this 5-year and counting endeavor would daunt you.  It would certainly cut into the number of courses you take such pride in seeing.  And for what end and whose benefit?

Maybe if you knew some of the other projects I'm working on in golf you might have an informed opinion of what I do on or off my duff.  I don't bother to tell you because I could care less if you know.  But it certainly makes you look foolish in your ignorance for those that do know.  I think you'd have a different take on your criticisms.  But then again, it isn't your tendency to find out much that is factual.

Gutter-filled invective?  Where?  I called you a pompous ass once.  I think I should have refrained from the use of the term but it isn't altogether inaccurate.  Oh, by the way, I don't have to see either Greywalls or the Kingsley Club to feel this way and see errors in your thinking.

Oblivious to golf outside of Philadelphia and Flynn.  You are a small-minded man and you constantly prove this.

And at last you bring up the old reliable Philadelphia bashing.  The last act of a desperate play by a desperate playwrite.  You have no idea who I am or what my affinities are in sports or in greater aspects of life are.  You should be ashamed for being so ignorant yet decided.  Again, if you have to say Philly (not Phillie) please spell it correctly.  Just so you know I have been a lifelong Phillies, Eagles, Flyers, Sixers and Big 5 fan.  

If there are plenty of people on this site that think of me as someone who should be in the corner of a classroom with a duncecap on, let them.  They are entitled and I don't care; let them shake their heads.  Maybe there are more than you think, but perhaps there are less, far less.  The ones I know and regard are either fooling me or disagreeing with you.  I think I know the answer to that.

[A.G._Crockett]

So, to sum up from a person with no dog in the hunt:

Wayne, you haven't played the course, so your opinion is invalid.  Get off your duff.

Brian, you've played the course too much, so your opinion is invalid.
Get some distance.

Hmmm....

 

[wsmorrison]

By Jove, I think you've got it, A.G.!

[Matt_Ward]

Wayne:

I almost fell down the stairs with laughter. Here comes Wayne M with this banter about if you can't say something nice about someone say nothing at all. This is the same joker who hijacks this thread with his silly cut-in-line issues about a topic in which he knows nothing about. It's simply the let's kick Ward routine over and over again. You're right -- there's nothing like touting the "let's be gentlemen" approach but let me clue in you in -- you need to act like one first. Nothing like kicking someone in the head and then after they are spralwed out on the floor then offer your hand as the nice guy you proclaim to be. Truly hilarious stuff.

Wayne -- you're the guy who has showed no respect for people like me who do take the time to see a wide range of courses nationwide. You constantly snipe that such an effort is superficial and rarely goes beyond the surface. Again another helping of Wayne Morrison BS. Field research provides for me and others the opportunity to see what is going on "in the field" and not placing one's head squarely in the sand. Clearly, you can't admit your own limitations so therefore why not attack someone else to legitimize your own situation.

Hey partner -- get this through your thick skull -- you're the guy who kicked the ball off on that line of BS of being "above and beyond ratings" -- excuse me holy one from the Main Line -- I simply state the facts and because it doesn't fall in total agreement with the high priests here on GCA the argument is then twisted back on me. Very nice style indeed.

You belittle that effort at all times -- likely because you see no purpose to it. Only Wayne has the perfect formula for what constitutes quality golf and what courses should be visited and highlighted.

Once again you rant on and on with additional twistings. What I said to Brian was to consider another perspective on the hole in question. Someone who plays the hole even numerous times clearly develops a take on what the hole is about. I played the hole and see the result of the architecture in a different lightand I went through a detailed postings beyond just simple saying the hole has some issues. Of course -- you once again take the automatic position that any position counter to Ward's has the ultimate standing in terms of its meaning. Very fair no doubt.

I never said his opinion was not valid -- everyone can have their own opinion -- I posted a series of comments on what I see are the shortcomings of the hole. Brian takes a different slant. Fair enough -- we agree to disagree. Oh, but wait a minute -- here comes Wayne "lone ranger" Morrison throwing his two cents forward on what I meant and why I'm so wrong.

Wayne -- I never belittle someone's opinion but I do have my strong feelings on golf course design. Where do you get off with this inane drivel that someone can't have a strong opinion based upon actual field research?

You, on the other hand, base strong opinions about me through this concocted silly split Matt Ward assessment. You and your fellow high priests have very strong opinions on what constitutes great golf courses but you never look beyond your own mmediate backyards or personal favorite existing architects to see the qualities of courses being designed by a whole range of people through the USA. Of course it helps to be oblivious to see what a range of talented people are designing today. The limits / comforts of the couch keep you from seeing beyond the confines of your neighborhood.

If the course isn't designed by the "select few" than who cares about what it's about and clearly if Ward likes it it must therefore be dogfood stuff. That's baloney and I would think a smart person like you -- forgive me for that quantum leap in assumptions -- would know that and would also appreciate the fact that certain people do in fact take the time and effort to make the kind of cross comparison analysis that adds to the broader understanding of such golf courses.

Wayne you're the clown who chirps yet has no clue -- zero clue -- about what's being debated. You simply jumped into the mix -- like one of those terrorists overseas to wreak havoc and throw forward a whole range of smoke screens and verbal grenades. I have written plenty in my time and I don't need you to lecture me on what it means to write or put together an editorial effort. When you have walked in my shoes then and only then should you tell me what efforts are required.

I take great pride in being fair in all my course assessments and I have the respect of a great many people -- many of them designers today -- who value an open-mind when their respective designs are being evaluated and discussed. You would be surprised what many people who actually design think of a number of people on this site because they consistently demonstrate a closed mind or belittle those who seek to ascertain what is happening in different parts of the country in course architecture today.

Wayne -- try to seek to understand before you are being understood. The book by Covey would be a great place for you to take off this affront you have with anything I post. I thought you had some class Wayne but you're desire to undermine through a continuous personal verbal diatribe says it simply and all.

[wsmorrison]

There's no getting through to you.  I am not going to try.  Our differences in values, definitions and points of reference will not allow it.  There is no more to be said so I will not comment on you on this site again.  Peace.