Restoration photos of Greenbrier - Old White (Raynor) -more added 25Aug05

[Scott_Burroughs]

I have received some photos of the restoration in progress at
the Old White course at The Greenbrier, a Raynor design.  
The holes are being done a few at a time by Lester George,
who also restored the Banks-designed Cavalier G&YC in
Virginia Beach.

Here is #9 (Punchbowl) from the right rough:



#14 (Narrows) from the short landing area:



#14 again, in the mist:



#14 from the rear:



#14 showing the service road crossing:



#15 (Eden):



#15 again from a little different angle:



#15 from #14 green:



#18 (Short?):



#18 (taken in 1929 from the clubhouse roof) nice horseshoe
in the green, a la Yeamans Hall, although this green is much larger:



#18 today, also from the roof:

[Mike_Sweeney]

Thanks Scott.

Anybody have any idea why so few of these horseshoe greens have survived over the years ?

I have heard they can be a maintenance problem, but Forsgate still has theirs and I think Jim Kennedy still has one up at Hotchkiss ?

[Scott_Burroughs]

To compare what the course had become prior to the
restoration, here are some aerial shots from 1990.  You can
see differences by looking at the above pics:

#9 (goes from upper right toward lower left in middle):



#14 (down the middle) and #15 (back toward NE across the
river).  Check out the fairway bunker on #14 then and
restored on the #14 from the rear pic above:



#18 (Short) in the middle across the river.  Nice Short bunkering, huh?:

[APBernstein]

Exactly, Scott.

The course was just a shell of what it once was.  The names of the holes were about the only thing that even reminded you that The Old White was once a Raynor design.

These are the first pictures of the course I have seen but will be down that way come next May.  Looking forward to playing the restored holes and reporting back.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Hmm, at best...

The "Eden" is pretty.  Is there a back bunker to replicate the Eden river hazard at St. Andrews?  

I had a few thoughts on the "Short" hole":

1.  I wonder what the mandate of the management company/Greenbrier ownership (Club Corp.?) was for restoring this hole?

2.  On one hand, I like the bunkering, it is well done, doesn't look too penal for the average resort player.

3.  For whichever reason, the "horseshoe" is now a simple lateral straight hump, which is not very challenging, in my mind.  I would much rather see the entire horseshoe, much as Banks did at Forsgate #12.  

Not having the entire horseshoe takes away some of the challenge of the "Short" hole--pinpoint short iron shots.  I feel some of the intention in the hole is lost.  

My solution would be to rebuild the entire horseshoe, for historical significance as well as the true playing aspect of the "Short".

[Scott_Burroughs]

Hmm, at best...

The "Eden" is pretty.  Is there a back bunker to replicate the Eden river hazard at St. Andrews?

Yes, and there is a pond behind the green, not easily seen in
the pictures, but you can see it in the aerials.  

I had a few thoughts on the "Short" hole":

1.  I wonder what the mandate of the management company/Greenbrier ownership (Club Corp.?) was for restoring this hole?

Apparently, the original was pretty severe, and as a resort, it wanted customers to come back, as 6-putting could happen with today's speeds (not my words).

3.  For whichever reason, the "horseshoe" is now a simple lateral straight hump, which is not very challenging, in my mind.  I would much rather see the entire horseshoe, much as Banks did at Forsgate #12.  

Not having the entire horseshoe takes away some of the challenge of the "Short" hole--pinpoint short iron shots.  I feel some of the intention in the hole is lost.  

My solution would be to rebuild the entire horseshoe, for historical significance as well as the true playing aspect of the "Short".

See for yourself the actual severity of the new semi-horseshoe, shown during construction (looks close to 2 feet in height):

[Lester George]

Scott,

Thanks for posting these shots.  The work at the Greenbrier is difficult because of the work window (November to April) but is going well because of the coordinated effort by all, especially Aspen Construction.  They have really captured the essence of what I am trying to do to re-create the Raynor/MacDonald characteristics of the course.  

Lester

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here's another from the restoration in progress, #13 (Alps):

[Scott_Burroughs]

Another from the restoration in progress, hole #12 (Long):

[Mike_Cirba]

Scott/Lester;

Thanks for sharing the pictures.  I've never been to Greenbrier but had much of the Raynor features completely disappeared before your arrival?

Also, any update on the work at Dupont?

Mike

[Lester George]

Mike,

Most, if not all of the Mac/Raynor features disappeared after the WWII.  We are using old photos for most of the complicated stuff.  In the photo above of #12 (Long) for example, the bunker in the foreground, the "twins" beyond and the creek across the fairway were all reinstated by us this year,  The greenside bunker was restored as was the green.

DuPont is growing in nicely.  Punch list is 95% completed.  If you are in the area let me know, I'll arrange a tour.  

Alex,

The Redan at the Old White is slated to be restored in the next phase of work (November) along with the Biarritz and Plateau holes.  

Lester

[Andy Hughes]

Lester,
Looks wonderful. I look forward to a visit someday.

Question: in the photo below of the Long Hole, you mention 'the twins'.  Why are those bunkers surrounded by rough rather than fairway?  Is that mandated by maintenance issues  or is it adesign/architecture decision?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Lester

Noel Freeman and I recently had a wonderful day at Kinloch- Congratulations

When you restored the bunkers from lost Raynor features you said that you used old photos.  Were the remains of the old bunkers still in the ground (edges and drainage tiling) for you to use as markers and did you take advantage of this?  I'm interested in this process and curious what various architects do during the restoration process?

Could you please tell us what the rationale was for the owners to ask for a mound in the 18th green rather then recreating the horseshoe feature that is the signature of short holes?

Thanks for helping to educate us.

[Chris_Blakely]

Lester

When will the next phase of work (Biarritz, redan and plateau holes) be completed and ready for plan?

Thanks,
Chris

[Lester George]

Geoff,

Thanks for the comment about Kinloch.  I've been thinking of a small GCA gathering 10-20 in the fall at Kinloch.  We'll set the date but I'll need someone to coordinate from the GCA ranks as I don't very often have time to check in.  Any ideas or volunteers?

As far as the recovery of Old White features there are not many remnants at all.  If anything, sometimes you can find some uneven ground or old drainage swales, but it's not like ther is an old filled in bunker that you can recreate.  Thats why we rely so heavily on photos.  You have to remember that the Greenbrier Hotel was sold to the Army after WWII as a hospital and the grounds were maintained at presumably very low cost, probably eliminating some original features.  Then, President Eisenhower convinced the hotel to build the secret Cold War bunker.  The fill from the excavation of the secret bunker was used to "renovate" the second Raynor golf course there.  Dick Wilson was used as the designer because he was ex-Army Intelligence and they new he had the proper security clearance and would keep his mouth shut.  I'm not sure he even made visits, just submitted plans.  

Anyway, thats the king of stuff were working with.  As far as the "mound" in the center of the green, the pictures of the stone layer really show it's horse shoe shape.  It's all I could fit in there because the green site is smaller today than before.  You see thare are still fiber optic communications lines for the secret bunker right in front of the green.  They are not to "touched".  

Chris,

The last phase will hopefully start in October of this year and be ready for play May 15th, 2005.

Lester

[Geoffrey Childs]

Lester

Thank you for explaining how you worked at Greenbrier.  I have an interest in Raynor restorations and I'm always curious about the interplay between architect and owners/committee members.  It's interesting to me that some places just filled in old bunkers with soil. I doubt there is another example of classic course bunkers being lost and replaced by a cold war bunker project!  I hope that underground bunker was in the Raynor style

[Mike_Cirba]

Lester,

Thanks for the full report.

I think a fall GCA meeting at Kinloch sounds wonderful.  I'd definitely come down from Philly, although it's too far away for me to organize.  

Mike

[Scott_Burroughs]

Another from the restoration, #14 (Narrows).  Don't know if
the entire course will have the "native grasses":



to get a better perspective and see the angle where the pic
was taken from, here are the 3 previous pictures of #14 from
the first post before the natives grasses weren't dormant:

[RJ_Daley]

Wow, that is some beautiful textured native!  
What sort of grasses comprise that stand?  
The early young greengrowth native has its own interesting texture.  
But, the season really matured it nicely. It looks absolutely textbook ideal.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here are some updated photos of some of the holes:

#12 (Long):



#14 (Narrows):



#18 (Short):



same from different angle: