Is Castle Pines the ugliest course on Tour?

[Darren_Kilfara]

When Castle Pines first hosted a PGA Tour event, I remember thinking that it was probably among the top five or six prettiest courses on Tour - the Rocky Mountain scenery was lovely, and the course was very tastefully presented. The former is still true, but those damn mowing lines all but make the course unwatchable for me. The mowing patterns in the fairways are bad, but the rings around them are utterly despicable. Who thinks these mowing patterns are a good idea???

Cheers,
Darren

[Brent Hutto]

I don't watch much of the International but at first glance the course looks very visually busy (at least on TV). It's not entirely the mowing patterns but I think they contribute. If there's a place you need baseball-stadium mowing patterns, it would be on a very open and visually uninteresting course, not one with mountain backdrops and various interestingly shaped conifers just off the fairways.

All IMHO, of course. I'm certainly no design geek (Paul Cowley, that's your invitation to chime in).

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

Ugly is a question of visuals, and with the qualifier "on tour" I don't understand how playing the course would change the opinion.

[Bill Gayne]

Ugly like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There's plenty of TV ugly on the tour including the courses of the Bob Hope Desert classic, Las Vegas, and Doral is visually unattractive. These may all be great golf courses on the ground but on TV they just don't do anything for me.

[cary lichtenstein]

No

[Jonathan Cummings]

Mat Ward - Junior member?  17 posts (Matt have you lapped the field and your counter been reset??)

I enjoyed my one round at Castle Pines a few years ago.  It is a course or merit and a spectacular member's club.  I like JN's Muirfield and Mayacama more but CP is still up there in my personal rankings.  

Relaxing in the locker room or having lunch on the veranda is a special treat at CP.

JC

[Anthony_Nysse]

I'm not sure where "Mat" is coming from, but mowing patterns have nothing to do with playing the golf course. I thought that mowing patterns at CP were way over the top and too much-everything was stripped-tees, greens, fairways, roughs...too busy and very distracting. Though the mowing patterns don't nessesarily make a golf course better, it can definatly leave a bad taste in your mouth-Look at Augusta Nat'l-There is no mowing patterns there-Fairways are mowed towards the tees and the tees are all mowed toward the fairways-no stripes....gives everything to the golf course.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[PThomas]

I played one hole in Florida where the mowing patterns coverged to form diamonds in the target area

[Doug Wright]

Darren,

I've never equated the words "Castle Pines" and "ugliest" except that perhaps it has the ugliest scrub oak on Tour if you hit into it like I have sometimes... It's a pretty attractive place even though they've let some houses encroach on the course lately.

I think the mowing patterns at Castle Pines GC looked a lot worse from the air/overhead cameras than on the ground. I played CPGC recently, and there were a couple of holes where I thought the fairway mowing patterns were just fine from the tee--eg looking up the hill on #17 and #9; otherwise I didn't recall anything remarkable about them.

Tony,

Didn't Augusta National have a two sided fairway mowing pattern where one side was mowed toward the tee and the other side toward the green?  I thought that was distracting but of course what can you tell on TV....

PS I hope those Tour caddies got some serious combat pay after yesterday's 36 holes in heat, hills and altitude. There are major hills and serious walks between greens and tees that make CPGC a very tough 18 hole walk with a Sunday bag let alone a Tour bag with all the stuff they tote around.

PSS It was also interesting to see some of the pros lose it during the 2d 18--the conditions were getting to them too.

[Matt_Ward]

Darren:

If you want "ugly" stop by and see TPC at Scottsdale. The place is on a former dump and the real desert elements are merely cosmetic to what one can really achieve there.

Doug:

How firm and fast did CP play given the thunderstroms that hit the course during round one?

[Doug Wright]

Matt,

Although the course drained well after 3+ inches of rain Wednesday-Thursday, I don't think it got up to any kind of speed till the last round on Sunday. They played lift, clean and place on Friday. I was surprised the scores weren't lower (or in this Stableford scoring case, higher).

[Anthony_Nysse]

Doug,
  The fairways at ANGC are mowed from green to tee-They have about 8-10 mowers and start at the green and blink of the eye, they're finished.
  As far at the TPC at Scotsdale goes-the tournament is on overseed and the course needs to have some stripes otheriwse it would be boring.IMO Other overseeded courses on tour-PGA West-Palmer, Tucson National, Doral, Bay Hill, TPC Sawgrass, TPC at Sugarloaf, ANGC, Harbour Town and Quail Hollow in Charlotte.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Greg Beaulieu]

Although the mowing stripes are busy, I would never call CP "ugly", at least not as it appears on TV. I'm not sure any Tour courses qualify as ugly, but the ones that look bad to me on TV are the TPC at Sugarloaf (probably because of the time of year with few trees in leaf and much dormant turf), Mirasol (just dull-looking), TPC at Las Colinas (also dull) and perhaps the two worst that are fortunately no longer in use, the TPC at English Turn (New Orleans) and Northview C.C. in Surrey B.C. (Greater Vancouver Open/Air Canada Championship). I dunno how you can find a bad looking site in that part of the world but they did it in B.C.

[Jfaspen]

Totally off-topic, and I'm sorry, but this question needs to be answered..

Are the milkshakes really that good?

jeff

[Darren_Kilfara]

Perhaps my question would have been better phrased if I had asked if any other course on Tour had been made to look worse by its mowing patterns than Castle Pines. I agree, Castle Pines, isn't the ugliest course on Tour; in my opinion, however, the ghastly mowing lines take what should be a lovely blending together of golf and nature and rather ruin it. It didn't used to be this way, which is perhaps why I really found it hard to watch more than a few minutes of the International at a time without being overpowered by nausea.

A few additional clarifications:

--I don't think one has to have been to a golf course to comment upon its visual presentation. I'm pleased to hear that Castle Pines looks better in person than it does on television, but the televisual impact of the mowing lines should not be discounted - people who don't know any better will look at the mowing patterns, deduce that their club's fairways and roughs should be mowed in a similar fashion, and carry on from there.

--"Matt Ward" and "Mat Ward" are two different posters. The former is a valued contributor to this board, whereas the latter is (I think) someone's excuse to make snotty comments under a veil of anonymity...

Cheers,
Darren

[Jim Nugent]

Doug,
  The fairways at ANGC are mowed from green to tee-They have about 8-10 mowers and start at the green and blink of the eye, they're finished.
  As far at the TPC at Scotsdale goes-the tournament is on overseed and the course needs to have some stripes otheriwse it would be boring.IMO Other overseeded courses on tour-PGA West-Palmer, Tucson National, Doral, Bay Hill, TPC Sawgrass, TPC at Sugarloaf, ANGC, Harbour Town and Quail Hollow in Charlotte.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

Can you give a brief education to a novice -- what is "overseeding?"

[Doug Wright]

It is a very schizophrenic change of three or four terrains and looks....

I actually find most of the architecture at CCCP more interesting than at CPGC.

BillV/Redanman,

Would you elaborate on the two comments above? I don't necessarily disagree with your first comment but wonder if your views of schizophrenia are similar or different from mine.

Re your second comment I'm inclined to disagree but I'd like to see where you are coming from before I quibble with you on it.

PS Jeff, the milkshakes may be off the shelf as Redanman asserts but they really are that good. I call them "round wreckers" because every time I've had one at the turn I've gotten to the 10th tee so bloated I can't make a swing.

[Chris Perry]

Although the mowing stripes are busy, I would never call CP "ugly", at least not as it appears on TV. I'm not sure any Tour courses qualify as ugly, but the ones that look bad to me on TV are the TPC at Sugarloaf (probably because of the time of year with few trees in leaf and much dormant turf), Mirasol (just dull-looking), TPC at Las Colinas (also dull) and perhaps the two worst that are fortunately no longer in use, the TPC at English Turn (New Orleans) and Northview C.C. in Surrey B.C. (Greater Vancouver Open/Air Canada Championship). I dunno how you can find a bad looking site in that part of the world but they did it in B.C.

Northview is in the middle of farm country in Cloverdale. Not much in the way of panorama, and power lines are an eyesore, but other than that I have no qualms with the course itself, it's a good mix of open and tight holes with lots of risk/reward options, typical of Palmer design. The last hole is a great finisher.

I'm sure most will find Shaughnessy more to their fancy though, considering it's perennially ranked 2nd behind Capilano as far as private clubs in B.C. go. I doubt you can see much scenery there past the trees either though.