[Tony_Muldoon]

Alfie thanks for your input I had only thought of how the railway was influential in developing top tier clubs.  Fulwell near london also benefitted in this way from it's proximity to a station.

Tom there are indeed many factors in Golfs development. Do you know of a history of golf that attempts to put it in a wider social context? All the ones I've seen are identikit jobs next came ..., the history of the equipment., the great players...

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

It's pretty hard to imagine today the extent of what Henry Flagler did along the east coast of Florida. His Florida East Coast Railway, pushing farther and farther south in the 1890s was basically responsible for the opening up and successful developement and tourist development of all of the Florida East coast all the way from Jacksonville to Key West. Basically Flagler was directly or indirectly responsible for the creation of a number of towns most notably Miami.

Flagler was granted land in some sections along the coast of app 1,500 acres for each mile of rail line he constructed. Since the state had granted land to the FCLCTC (Florida Coast Line Canal Transportation Company) for the construction of the Florida East Coast intercoastal waterway Flagler basically went into business with FCLCTC to help revive their company and it's lagging sale of land they'd been granted by the State of Florida.

It's probably almost incalculable just how much land Flager may've once owned along the Florida East Coast and what he did to open up and develop so much of the Florida East Coast through his hotels and communities all brought to fruition through the vehicle of his Florida East Coast Railway.

By the way, Henry Flagler was a partner of John D. Rockefeller in Standard Oil.

You should also know that Henry Flagler's middle name was Morrison. That means to me that you should talk to my shister NYC lawyer as it may be possible for you to reclaim what is probably rightfully yours----that being the entire east coast of Florida.  

[T_MacWood]

Sean
If I'm not mistaken this thread is about the railraod contributing to the spread of golf (which clearly it did), but not at Prestwick, St. Andrews and Aberdovey. Alfie is right, golf was developed in those places by locals.

The railroads existed when the first Open was played in 1860 at Prestwick. It was pretty much exclusively a Scotish affair (golf was pretty much a Scotish affair too). The first twelve Opens were played at Prestwick. Eventually Musselburgh and St.Andrews were included in the rotation. To say the railroad is responsible for making the Open what it is today and making Prestwick what it is today, is a gross over simplification IMO. What about the horse, boat, automobile and airplane...what was their role?

Tony
I've read a number of books and articles that try to identify the reasons for the game taking off...the reasons I listed came from these sources...Horace Hutchinson's 'Fifty Years of Golf' identified a number of them, 'A History of Golf in Britain' (Guy Campbell, Bernard Darwin, et al) is another good resource. One of the histories of Country Life magazine does good job of it as well....golf being one many outdoor pursuits that became popular due to changing social, economic and technological factors...including ease of transportation.

[RJ_Daley]

golf being one many outdoor pursuits that became popular due to changing social, economic and technological factors...including ease of transportation.

As Tom MacW finally gets to the obvious point above, I don't look at this discussion of golf and its nexus to R.R. being as important as finding what the next transportation nexus will be if the game can expand further.

I don't have a sense of GB&I society and its continued use of trains as commonly accepted and well used people movers.  But in the U.S., obviously the use of rail transport is pretty much confined to the large east coast and Chi town metro areas.  Otherwise, the only viable way to exit the urban areas for the newer courses is by car.  Now, with fuel prices uncertain, yet much higher for the forseeable future, and crumbling infrastructure of inadequate volume capacity of expressways and toll roads, the ease or convenience of regional auto travel to courses in the suburban environment gets less attractive.

Plane to rental car agency is the new connection to get to many of the most exciting new venues for golf.  But, that volume is curtailed somewhat by the logistics.  I think a place like Bandon,Pac,Trails will have to confront constricting trends in transportation and come up with a clever solution to move 100-200 people a day conveniently to its site.  I know Sand Hills and Sutton Bay have 9 passenger vans to do some of the hauling from their airports 45-70 miles away.  But, perhaps a new relationship with airport to regularly scheduled bus routes, with cooperation from regional air carriers working on a logical time schedule would be helpful.

Also, along the same observations of golf growing with the use of railways, we obviously see most metro airports with golf courses in their flight way peripheries now, with some GCA firms specialising in such course site and construction issues.

[ForkaB]

I find it interesting that the Old Course was not widened (to allow for comfortably simultaneous play outwards and inwards) until 1856, 4 years after the railroad reached St. Andrews.  It is also accepted wisdom that the increase in visitors to the town (in large part caused by rail access,--including the amelioration of services with the building of bridges over the Firths of Tay and Forth in the 1880-90 period) was the impetus behind the purchase of the links by the town in 1894 and the subsequent building of the New and Jubilee Courses.

[T_MacWood]

"You make my point perfectly."

Sean
Which point? That Aberdovey was developed because of the railroad or that Prestwick's reputation was made by the railroad or that the Open we know today is primarily due to the railroad?

Yours is the narrow reading, a gross oversimplification IMO...there were a number of factors that led to the game's increased popularity.

Rich
The gutta percha was invented at St. Andrews in 1848. Its development is cited as the reason for the games increased popularity (and the increased play) at St. Andrews and the chief reason the course was widened.

No doubt the game's growing popularity--throughout the British Isles in the 1880's and 1890's (partially due to the railways)--led to the creation of the New course at St. Andrews in 1894.

[ForkaB]

Tom

The railways and the gutties and increased prosperity and a whole host of other things led to the widening of the Old Course.  Nobody should be or have been so unwise as to assume that it was just one factor--even some long dead historians.......

[BCrosby]

The interesting thing about the gutties (this is David Joy's thesis) is that they made golf affordable for the first time to a large number of people. Gutties were, acording to Joy, only marginally better than the featheries. But they came at a fraction of the price.

It wasn't until about 1850 that the average guy could buy a ball. There wasn't a sudden spike in prosperity about 1850 nor did the growth of rail networks unleash a massive suppressed demand to play the game, though both those developments helped later.

What corresponds best with the jump in popularity of the game about 1850 was that the golf ball - almost overnight -  became something a large number of people were able to buy.

Bob

[Tony_Muldoon]

Bob I'm not diagreeing with you about the importaince of the ball but where did the time come from for people to get away from work and to the course and back?  The railway and the industrial revolution created wealth and leisure time for the lucky few.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Many of the things that contribute to a great course are not always appreciated at their full value; criticisms are often directed against the very features to which much of their greatness is due. Roads, RAILWAYS, sheds and gardens may be thought unsatisfactory and unwelcome, yet are often essence of a course; take them away and the difference at once would be felt. They can give just the suggestion of the links as primarily a thing bound up with the life of the community. When a course is beyond the the limits of outside interference the stamp of originality is apt to be lacking.--Tom Simpson, The Architectural Side of Golf

[ForkaB]

Bob

Interesting thesis by David J (and I did read his book, although several years ago.  I do remember reporting on it to this forum when I found out that the 18th green and the Valley of Sin at TOC was in fact a Victorian/OTM construction....), but it is only a thesis.  From what I can ascertain, the growth of golf in St, Andrews (in 1850 or1890 or even 2000) was not serioslsy due to St. Andreans suddenly having enough disposable income to buy golf balls, but due to the significant influx of visitors from other pairts, due to increased overall wealth and better transportation links.

Like everybody, I'm speculating here, but I like my speculations better than others I have heard!

[T_MacWood]

Rich
Its not Joy's theory...just about every chronicler of early golf history and St. Andrews has written about the advent of the gutty, how it made the game easier, more affordable and in turn more popular...which led to the cutting of two holes out and in at St. Andrews. I'm surprised you did not know that...well not really that surprised...with your aversion to dead historians and all.

[ForkaB]

Tom

Please argue with Bob Crosby about whether or not Joy's idea was a theory. He said it, not I.

I do know that historians, dead or alive, make mistakes and lots of them--particularly in an area such as GCA which is and has been casually written and not peer-reviewed.  All you need is one dead guy making a dodgy statement, some other lazy dead guy quoting him, and then everybody in the future thinks it is gospel.  I am not a historian, but I studied enough History at University to understand the difference between the wheat and the bullshit.  There is a lot of chaff in the annals of GCA that some of us take for gospel because we are too complacent or too lazy to do the heavy lifting of original research.

Feel free to believe what you want to believe, Tom, and I apologise for all the times that I have shattered you illusions.

PS--the best contemporary historian of golf at St. Andrews in the 1820-1880 period (particulalry about the time when the course was widened c. 1857) is James Balfour, and I don't remember him saying anything significant about the guttie.

PPS--the idea of cutting two holes in each green was first proposed in 1832, when the featheries were still in full flight, as it were......

[T_MacWood]

Thanks for your insight on history and historians….and why you hold the dead historians in such low esteem. Over the years you have made a habit of erroneous statements on golf history, golf architecture history and even the history of your own former home course…so I’m at loss as to how you are able to judge these things. For example, why is James Balfour (and his amusing little pamphlet) the best contemporary historian of this period, and not Henry Farnie, Charles Rogers, WR Chambers, H.Thomas Peter or HCS Everard. Oh well.

IMO the best study on the history of St. Andrews (and early golf in general) is the massive work produced by Alistair Johnston and JF Johnston: ‘Chronicles of Golf 1457 to 1857’. If you are interested in the history of golf I’d recommend you pick it up. As far I know Johnston is still alive, which no doubt should please you.

From what I understand Johnston’s library is one of the most extensive in the world, containing just about every book ever written about the game, and he quotes many of them (going to the inconsistancies of some accounts), as well as the R&A’s minutes. I’ll warn you, the book may shatter some of your own illusions regarding Balfour’s book however. By the way you might want to re-read Balfour’s book…he does go into the advent of the gutty in detail.

There is no doubt that the advent of the gutty revolutionized the game like no other event before or since….the game became affordable for the masses and made it possible for the game to explode in popularity.

“PPS--the idea of cutting two holes in each green was first proposed in 1832, when the featheries were still in full flight, as it were......”

Unfortunately that suggestion was tabled for twenty years plus years…was that was prior to the RR ?
 

[ForkaB]

Thanks, Tom

I've ordered Johnson & Johnson over Amazon for the price of a sleeve of Prov1's, and they throw in a botle of baby shampoo for free!  I'll let you know what I think of it after it arrives.

Do you really think that all historians are and always have been unbiased and accurate?  If so, it's good to see that innocence is not as dead in this brave new world as I had been coming to believe....

[mike_malone]

 When I stayed in a B+B in Lahinch a few years ago, the hostess, a member of Lahinch, said the course was intended for the dunesland of the present Doonbeg. However, the railroad went to Lahinch. So, that's where the course was built.

[T_MacWood]

"Do you really think that all historians are and always have been unbiased and accurate?"

Rich
No. That is why I try to search for as many independent sources as possible...and that is why Johnston's book is so impressive.

Which goes back to my original statement (supported by numerous dead historians) that the development of the gutty was the single biggest contributor to the increased popularity of the game and in turn, increased play was the primary reason why the Old Course was widened. Again, as I stated before, there were many reasons why the game's popularity spread (including the railways)...but the most important development was the gutty. But then again, as Pat Mucci says I could be wrong, and all the dead historians could be wrong as well.

I'm beginning to see a patern in your behavior....your scepticism and contrarian tendencies increase as your knowledge of a subject declines (or conflicts with one of your theories).

[ForkaB]

Tom

You need to take Pattern Recognition 101.  I'm sure your local community college could help you out on this one.

Cheers

Rich

[Andy Levett]

Interesting article here about Rye's early days:
http://www.urban75.org/railway/camber.html
In this case at least the relationship between golf and railway appears to have been both mutually supportive and mutually necessary.

Regarding Prestwick, the railway (1840) pre-dates the golf club (1851).

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Slow down, both of you.....

To continue:

The Los Angeles basin in the hey-days had a pretty complex, if not one of the best, most aggressive transit systems of any metropolan set of rails. It was way too ahead of its time. If you look, it's obvious, The Red Car probably delievered many of the players.

The "Red Car" flourished for years, carrying Angelenos all over Southern California from Chatsworth to Laguna Beach. It met its demise when General Motors, seeing the lucrative po$$ibilitie$ of getting getting people to rely on the automobile as a "better" mode of transportation. They lobbyed heavily for the speedy alternative--The Freeway and seeing that the Red Car stood in its way, GM simply bought it from Pacific Electric and promptly liquidated it and the land which was orignally federally subsidized. Soon the concrete laberyth we have come to know as the over-taxed LA freeway system appeared all over Southland.  

GM made many millions.

In 1990, in an effort to eleviate smog, traffic congestion etc. at the tune of billions, new railways were built, none of them nearly as efficient as the old public rail line, The Red Car.

I've tried to red dot as many Golden Age courses that existed near or right on these Red Car lines. Looking closer, I forgot a few, but note them below.



1-Annandale 2-Brookside 3-Pasadena 4-San Gabriel 5-Midwick 6-El Serreno 7-Oakmont 8-Wilshire 9-Lakeside 10-Hollywood 11-LACC(36) 12-Westwood 13-Ambassador/Rancho Park 14-Hillcrest 15-California 16-Bel Air 17-Sepulveda 18-Riviera 19-Brentwood 20-Sunset Hills(36) 21-Fox Hills(36) 22-Western 23-Palos Verdes 24-Royal Palms 25-Virginia 26-Long Beach Recreation Park 27-Rio Hondo 28-Urban CC 29-Montebello 30-Mountain Meadows 31-Unnamed OC course 32-Willowick 33-Santa Ana 34-Orange County CC 35-Hacienda GC

Some ones I forgot to put on the map:
-Flintridge CC (La Canada)
-Green Hotel (Pasadena)
-Sawtelle GC (Culver City)
-Long Beach CC/Meadowlark GC (Near Seal Beach)
-Acacia CC (Covina)
-St. Andrews GC (Tarzana)
-El Cabalerro CC (Tarzana)
-Girard CC/Woodland Hills CC (Girard/Woodland Hills)
-The Golfer's Club (36) (Calabasas)

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Tommy -

Nice Map!

Woodway Country Club in Darien, CT (Est. 1916/Opened 1918) had its own stop off of the New Canaan spur line of the New Haven, New York and Hartford line.  The President of the railroad was a member, and the stop facilitated travel to and from the club before the construction of The Merritt Parkway in the 30's.  I remember riding my bike to the New Canaan station and riding two stops for 35 cents in the early 70's.  Coming home, you had to flag the train to make a stop for you.

Unfortunately, the new cars that were brought into service in th 1970's lacked grade level exits, and the stop was removed to save building a short platform.

JWK

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