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Mike_Young

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Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« on: July 17, 2005, 09:42:07 PM »
Anyone that built that hole today would be shot.....it continues to worsen as speed picks up.
JMO
« Last Edit: July 17, 2005, 11:35:17 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotunda
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2005, 09:45:17 PM »
Mike,

How would you evaluate it without the hotel ?

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotunda
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2005, 10:05:22 PM »
Pat,
IMO hotel is just one of many outside agencies involved with the playability of the hole.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotunda
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2005, 10:24:25 PM »
Mike  -- pls explain why

quirky for sure, but so unique and one of a kind it's the exception proves the rule kind of hole for me...
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2005, 11:37:54 PM »
Paul,
I just think there is a difference between being hard and being unfair.  To be fair par should be 5.  
Mike
« Last Edit: July 17, 2005, 11:38:09 PM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

tonyt

Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2005, 01:02:10 AM »
To be fair par should be 5.

The par of the hole does nothing to make it more or less fair. Every player's number on that hole is fair in relation to everone else's number, and it plays the same regardless of the number on the card. When viewing medal play as a spectator, it is quite common to take into account between two players on different parts of the course which holes lie between them and therefore who may have the advantage. Like at Augusta when a player is through #12 and hasn't yet played #13, whilst another player has completed #15 and they are on the same score.

I loved #17. There is nothing unfair about it. It is only unfair to those golfers who have been raised to not fully understand that there can be great distance between the ideal landing area and the ideal finishing position of the ball, and the skill required to execute the shot and shot shape as evaluated. I'll take that over flying mid irons over the road bunker and stopping it in the middle of the green any day.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2005, 02:30:00 AM »
MIke, the whole course doesn't meet modern design standards - which I think is an indictment of modern design standards, not The Old Course. Too dangerously narrow, double greens are a liability, half the tee shots are blind or semi-blind, as are half the bunkers. Too much luck involved. Not enough variety or design balance in the par-4s. Has too many holes that are either extremely easy  or extremely hard.

All of the design quirks that make it so weird are also the same ones that make it so interesting. The best example of that is 17, starting with the blind tee shot, the hotel liability, a green that won't hold a shot, and a bunker complex by the green that is absurdly punitive.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2005, 02:30:49 AM by Brad Klein »

Brent Hutto

Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2005, 06:47:34 AM »
All of the design quirks that make it so weird are also the same ones that make it so interesting. The best example of that is 17, starting with the blind tee shot, the hotel liability, a green that won't hold a shot, and a bunker complex by the green that is absurdly punitive.

I'd say the hole was extremely (although not necessarily absurdly) punitive when David Duval couldn't get out of it. By comparison, the version this year was merely a greenside pot bunker of no particular menace. I just didn't see players having difficulty getting out of it.

Now because of the shape of the green and where they cut the holes, it was extremely difficult to get out of the bunker and close to the hole but it's merely a modern expectation that every bunker should be one you can hit out of to within three feet of the hole. I do not believe that a bunker which will entail making to 20-foot putt for a sand save is absurb, even on the 71st hole of a major championship.

It's a great hole, flawed only in its requirement to tee off ove and around the hotel, IMO.

David Sneddon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2005, 06:58:20 AM »
It's a great hole, flawed only in its requirement to tee off ove and around the hotel, IMO.

Unless you have a wicked slice, the hotel is not a factor.  It is the replica old railway sheds you aim your ball over, if you have the distance off the tee to carry to the fairway.  Otherwise you take the longer way round.  It is no different than a forced carry over a water hazard, or playing a blind shot over a rise in the ground.

No flaws at all, IMHO.
Give my love to Mary and bury me in Dornoch

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2005, 07:14:48 AM »
Of course the hole came first, and the hotel, from the mid-1960s, is a much worse affront to sound and aesthetic design.

John_Beaumont

Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2005, 08:18:59 AM »
Can an occasional visitor to this site from England add a few comments please?  I forget who said it, but it was one of the greats (it may have been Jones), which was that the Road Hole was continually in his mind right from the start of his round at TOC.  Nothing was decided finally until he had negotiated the hole successfully.  That is a tribute in itself.
   Many other things might be said to convey the greatness of this hole.  Here are just a few.  But, of course, many of them are under real threat owing to the modern technology in respect of ball and clubs
1.   A completely blind tee shot.  I put that down as a plus.  Of course, it must not be the norm, but what is wrong with putting some initial uncertainty into the mind of the player.  No doubt the pros would like each hole to have a series of reflecting lights marking out the fairway for them, but one must not pander to them!
2.   The risk and reward situation with the tee shot.  A drive down the right makes the second easier.  But, here the technology issue comes in at once.  At one time the fairway was quite wide and only narrowed in much closer to Scholar’s bunker.  No need, then, for long rough there because the second shot was made so much more difficult coming in from the left with having to aim more directly towards the road.  But, the possibility of the high flying, quick stopping approach (made all the more feasible by the length of drives now) means that some players can still attack the flag from the left centre of the fairway (as Tiger Woods did).  This has ruined this aspect of the hole.  No doubt part of the reason why the authorities narrowed the fairway was to force the use of an iron or 3 wood off the tee so as to make the second that bit longer and make it more difficult to fly it all the way.  I find the constant use of irons off tees a sad sight (especially off the first tee at TOC).
3.   The traditional problem of whether to play the second shot short and right, hoping to run onto the front edge of the green versus the option to risk all by trying to run up to the flag in its usual position adjacent to the Road bunker (with all the risks that involves).  The beauty of that is the possibility of a big turn around in scores on one hole so close to the finish.  An additional plus is that until the ball technology issued raised its ugly head, the second shot was not simply one of measuring the yardage and taking the appropriate club, but the much more subtle tactic of playing a low running shot up there.  Here again an example of the great variety of possibilities that TOC provided.
4.   The incredibly difficult target for the second shot.  OK, it’s maybe unfair in one definition of that term.  But, (a) why shouldn’t luck play a role (overcoming bad luck is surely one of the qualities one looks for in a champion); (b) why shouldn’t, say, one hole be different from all the rest and pose such a challenge?
5.   The subtlety of the borrows around the green.  How beautiful visually is the area close to the green and the green itself.  Once more variety of choice here appeals.  Just a couple of yards one way or the other determines whether a shot from short left around the green should be a putt or a chip and it is a delight (to me anyway) to see the great players puzzling out the right line.
As someone has already stated, the objection from the “par figure” is a red herring.  Incidentally, I believe that par for the Road Hole was at one time 5.  I’ve seen this in various references.  On distances, no doubt many of you will have copies of the famous map of the course stated as surveyed and depicted by Alistair Mackenzie and dated 1924.  At that time the course measured 6,572 yards.
Finally, a much better indication of the flavour of the road Hole can be gleaned from the wonderful chapter in Bobby Jones’ “Golf Is My Game” (Chatto and Windus, 1961), pp.120-139, where the story is told of the Amateur Championship of 1930, the first leg of Jones’ Grand Slam.  The Road Hole played an important role nearly every day in Jones progress to that championship.  Especially moving is his account of the great match with Cyril Tolley (one of the photos of the two players waiting for the crowd to be moved captures the period beautifully).  I believe that book was not ghosted, but written by Jones himself.  Is there a better book of its kind?  I doubt it.  Incidentally that chapter gives plenty of references to long driving such as that Tolley drove the 9th (306 yards then); both overdrove the 12th (314 yards).  Also, Tolley had a 3 at the 14th (then 527 yards).  Both drove to within ten yards of the 18th green.  But here there was a very strong wind blowing behind in the cases mentioned.  I’m also fascinated by what may be called par “three and a half’s” (see my article in the My opinion” section on Ganton).  But, Woods driving the 10th when the wind was not exactly favouring is just ridiculous.
Sorry for this far too lengthy post!

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2005, 10:11:14 AM »
Is JakaB back posting as Mike Young?

The Road Hole is one of the great holes in the game. For any number of reasons.

Would a modern architect be lambasted if he designed a similar hole today? Absolutely, and by the same crowd that loves Fazio. Go figure. We would be well served by more modern architects willing to take the heat and build similar holes.

John Beaumont -

Welcome. Great post.

Yes, the Road Hole played as a par 5 until the 1930's, I believe. Like the 13th at ANGC, it is one of the great half par holes.

Bob  

« Last Edit: July 18, 2005, 11:08:18 AM by BCrosby »

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2005, 10:18:52 AM »
My only problem with the Road Hole is that it doesn't seem long enough anymore. I realize Tiger was protecting a lead, but he played it with an iron off the tee on Saturday and Sunday. Its length, relative to the precision the second shot demanded, has always been its strength. As with almost everything else in golf these days, the equipment has eroded the greatness of the hole -- a bit. It's still great.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2005, 10:27:13 AM »
What's unfair about it?

It rewards thoughtful play and punishes poor play, especially poor thoughtless play.

Nice post, John Beaumont, wasn't even really all that long, and, as always, sage words from Bob Crosby.

Are there any modern analogs to The Road Hole, at least in terms of controversy, or controversy that works well?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Steve_Lemmon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2005, 10:36:17 AM »
Never having played there, but knowing most players hit the ball right, what about the wicked slice?  Is it safe to sit out by that pool or whatever it is in the garden area of the hotel on a day of normal play?

ForkaB

Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2005, 10:54:01 AM »
Steve

I visit TOC Hotel every couple of years, and there is a conservatory in power-slice range whose roof has numerous ball impact craters (the glass is bullet-proof stuff).  It would be an ideal place for a veranda, but I'm not sure the punters would take kindly to having ProV1's landing in their Gin and It's............

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2005, 10:56:31 AM »
I can personally attest to the effects of a wicked slice on the Road Hole. I had the opportunity to play the course many years ago, with perhaps the worst set of rental clubs I've ever seen (abuse me at will for not bringing my own sticks......hey, I was on a bus tour with my parents........)

My vicious slice managed to hit one of the railway shed replacement buildings, and bounded back in bounds to the fairway. My playing partner, a member of the Royal and Ancient, stated that he'd never seen that happen in all his rounds on the course. A dubious honor.

I wouldn'tn worry so much walking the hotel grounds during The Open or the  Dunhill Cup, but on a regular day, with any wind blowing at all, I'd hurry as fast as I could past any pool or garden area !
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2005, 11:09:53 AM »
John Beaumont, wonderful post.  Tom Paul will be jealous. ;) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2005, 11:24:03 AM »
Unless you have a wicked slice, the hotel is not a factor.

Seems to me the hotel is not a factor unless you have a wicked hook (or a lefty with a wicked slice)!

I saw a guy at the range last week who had learned to "control" a tee ball that must have typically moved 50, 60, 70 yards from right to left. To hit the Road Hole fairway, he wouldn't be aiming at one of the O's on the sign; he'd be aiming at one of the corner suites. Even a guy like that one must push a drive once in a while!

I love the hole -- though, as Rick says, it might be too short for these pros. I don't want to see irons off the tee there.

A question for Old Course regulars: How much narrower were the landing area and the approach than they are for day-to-day play?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2005, 11:25:22 AM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2005, 03:47:52 PM »
Not only is it not the Worst Hole in the rotation, it is by far the BEST.  Foe all the reasons Brad Klein said and more.  Unless you have played it, in varying conditions, you can't even imagine how the total quirkiness of the continues to add up to one very hard hole, that is eminently fair and appropriate for that golf course.  Trying to reproduce it would be folly because you don't have 500 years of "it's always been that way" to justify it.  The Road Hole ROCKS!

Lester

Brian Phillips

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Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2005, 04:41:08 PM »

A question for Old Course regulars: How much narrower were the landing area and the approach than they are for day-to-day play?

Dan,

It is pretty much the same which I think is too penal and not needed.  I don't like the hole but like Lester says it is hard not to like it as well.... :-\

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2005, 04:53:38 PM »
Well,  looks like I am out voted....see some of you guys points but I still stick with my opinion on this one.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Andy Levett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Is the Road hole the worst hole in the Open Rotation
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2005, 05:35:38 PM »

John Beaumont -

Welcome. Great post.

Yes, the Road Hole played as a par 5 until the 1930's, I believe. Like the 13th at ANGC, it is one of the great half par holes.

Bob  



Frank Pennink in Golfer's Companion (1962) has it as a 453 yard par 5. Total 6,936 par and sss 73.

By 1973 Peter Allen in Play The Best Courses has a 466 yards par 4. Total 6,951 (championship) 6,581 medal, par 72.

The difference  this time compared to previous Opens appeared to be the rough 'pinching in' from the right at driving distance. This led to everyone laying back off the tee and taking 8 iron or more for their second.
Otherwise the Road Hole would have been a drive and a pitch.

I doubt anyone would have wanted that and I think the R&A got   that hole right by introducing artificial 'protection' against the long drive in order to preserve the second shot.
But I also think they got it right by not trying to 'protect'   9, 10, 12 and 18 by doing something daft like  growing  rough in front.
 Even 9 - often regarded as one of weakest holes - worked brilliantly in 2005, with the difference between a 2 or a 6 (via the gorse short left) being just a few yards or a dubious bounce.

18 actually seemed improved - for the pros - by technology. New numbers were introduced - Faldo and co making  eagles with their putters, other making a 6 by going OB chasing the pin.
For the rest of us the 18th - and the first - seem diminished. In the late seventies it was a big dilemma whether to aim safe  left off the tee for a 'character-building' 175 yard 2 iron or risk going OB on the widest fairway in golf by taking a straighter line to set up a simple 150 yard 5-iron. Now we can all aim left.