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Chris_Clouser

Royal Cinque Ports designer
« on: June 16, 2005, 12:34:01 PM »
Cornish and Whitten in their book The Golf Course attribute the original design of the course at Deal to Tom Dunn.  Does anyone have any information to contradict this statement?  The reason I ask was that I was recently reflecting on all the Victorian/Arts and Crafts posts we had a month ago and saw this attributed to Dunn and thought it interesting.  


Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Royal Cinque Ports designer
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2005, 01:08:42 PM »
In a Feature Interview on this site, club historian David Dobby discussed Dunn's contributions:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewdobby.html

He mentions that Dunn participated in the creation of the original 9 holes.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

NAF

Re:Royal Cinque Ports designer
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2005, 08:53:32 AM »
From having spent so much time with David and at the club and doing my own look at the history, it really was Harry Hunter that should be given credit.  But there is no real proof in the pudding..

Chris_Clouser

Re:Royal Cinque Ports designer
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2005, 10:30:42 AM »
I read the write-up in Hutchinson's British Golf Links and his claim was that Dunn did the original nine.  Considering that was written just a few years after the course was laid out, then I think that would be what I would with.  But I think it is obvious that Hunter had a huge hand in what is there currently if not in the initial routing.

NAF

Re:Royal Cinque Ports designer
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2005, 10:52:26 AM »
In Horace's day, Tom Dunn was the Johnny Appleseed of golf at the time. I'm sure he paid a visit and had something to do with Deal but I think if you ask David and I'm sure he'd be happy to answer you, he'd say Harry Hunter was the man.  The original nine holes is very intricate and has devious greens and lots of quirk, stuff that does not seem to be Tom Dunn's raison d'etre.  Like I said, he may have routed the hole directions etc but Hunter built them and should be credited with the details.

Chris_Clouser

Re:Royal Cinque Ports designer
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2005, 02:06:59 PM »
Noel,

I want to e-mail you next week sometime on a topic related to this.  I see what you are saying, but I think Dunn might be getting a little bit of disrespect here due to his "reputation".  In looking through the Hutchinson book, British Golf Links, I see several courses that Dunn did in the 1890s, toward the end of his career, that seem to be much more, shall I say, evolved than the work he is generally associated with.  Courses like Scarborough (Ganton) seemed to be in his repetoire during this period, where years earlier they were not.  But I haven't been there and I don't know how much those original nine holes were changed since Dunn even went to Deal.  Perhaps Hunter changed everything that Dunn did over time and that is the course that fundamentally exists today.

It's funny that Hutchinson was such a fan of so many of Dunn's courses that he included them in his 1897 book, but people that came along twenty or thirty years later were so opposed to his courses.  It makes me wonder about what Hutchinson was really thinking at the time.  Were his beliefs in 1897 so different than people like Mackenzie and Simpon.  Or did his thoughts shift over the years?  Or did they suddenly shift in 1897 when he started at Country Life and it became more lucrative for him to espouse a much more Arts & Crafts tone in his work?  The reason that I ask is that some of his writings before 1897 are somewhat in line with the design beliefs of Dunn and Morris, but after that they seem to shift.  If Hutchinson was the founder of the Arts & Craft movement in golf course architecture like Tom MacWood writes then I wonder how he made this move so suddenly to a new set of ideas.  

I don't want to rehash the whole A&C/Victorian argument, just thinking out loud.


NAF

Re:Royal Cinque Ports designer
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2005, 02:21:35 PM »
Chris-

I think people like Hutchinson's views changed over time.  I'll use Darwin and Deal as an example. Early Darwin writings spoke positively about the old Sandy Parlour 4th hole.  Then after it was changed, he kind of hedged his bets and also in Golf Courses of the British Isles he was a bit sanguine as well. The art was so new at the time I think their views had to change with the times because it was an evolving target.

Feel free to email me..


ForkaB

Re:Royal Cinque Ports designer
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2005, 03:50:47 PM »
Chris

Great thoughts.

Keep  on thinkin'

Rich

T_MacWood

Re:Royal Cinque Ports designer
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2005, 08:00:01 PM »
Chris
Where does Hutchinson mention Dunn in regards to Deal...he gives full credit to Hunter for the early nine...at least in the version I've read?

Tom Chisolm was the original architect of Ganton, not TDunn.

Hutchinson had some interesting thoughts about TD in his biography (1914)....after detailing his architectural shortcomings, he concluded by saying "A man is not to be criticized because he is not in advance of his time."

Rich
At least TDunn had an excuse.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2005, 10:29:30 PM by Tom MacWood »