Redan hole -- old and new

[Dan King]

There was a thread about the difference wedges have made in architecture. I mentioned how bunkers have drastically changed in the name of fairness.

I was looking for something else, and came across one of my favorite pictures of a hazard, an old picture of the front-left bunker on the Redan hole at North Berwick:



Compare this to the current bunker (picture from this site):



Which would more influence your shot selection?

Dan King

"Mediocre players are just out there messing up the sand traps."
 --Lloyd Mangrum

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan King,

In the clubhouse at GCGC there is a picture of the first hole bunker from earlier times, it looks similar to the top picture, the current bunker is benign by comparison, and in the absolute.

The ferociousness of the bunker in the top picture and the early bunker at GCGC had to DRAMATICALLY influence play.

Today, they present a far more casual defense.

I'd prefer to see a return to more penal bunkers, along the lines of what you pictured, especially with today's specialty equipment.

[Doug Siebert]

I love that older bunker!  A lob wedge isn't going to do you much good if you just fell off the edge of the green into that.  It can't be overdone, but some bunkers really need to be penal enough that you must seriously consider playing out sideways or backwards.

We need more bunkers with steps!

[Paul_Turner]

I'd certainly keep my head down in the top bunker!  Usually sleepered bunkers have the sleepers at any angle so you don't get pinged by a ricoche, but not this case.

[Mike_Cirba]

Dan King;

I know you're against motorized thingys in golf, but I prefer bunkers that require escalators.  

Great pic....thanks for sharing!

[ChipOat]

What Patrick Mucci said - Amen, Brother!

I have argued in other threads that "restorations" should include a return to the original degree of difficulty.  Given the difficulty of using hickory shafted niblicks vs. today's multi-wedge artillery, that means deeper, more penal bunkers.

[TEPaul]

Dan King:

Christ man, if I had to stare at that top bunker from the tee, I'd take out my putter and putt the damn ball up to the green, and I'd never be in that bunker in my life.

Paul Turner:

If you were in that top bunker maybe you'd keep your head down but not me. I'd hit my L-wedge real fast and run backwards even faster!

[Brian Phillips]

Everyone,

When you stand on the tee on the Redan you cannot see the green or the bunker pictured.  I can assure you the bunker is still intimidating but the slope at the right hand side of the green is the most difficult thing to work out.  

I have hit everything from a 4 iron down to an 8 iron on that hole.  I have hit the green 3 out of 4 times in the last 2 months. The closest I have got to the flag is about 3-4 metres and still have not birdied it.

I have not seen a birdie in all those outing either!!  The bunker is in play but most play WAY out to the right to try and feen down to the flag and therefore avoid the bunker by miles!!

Tom,

You can't hit a putter because there are two LARGE bunkers right in front of the tee that are right in line between yourself and the green!!  The bunkers hide the green and you can only just see the flag!!


Brian

[ForkaB]

Brian

Thanks for chiming in as I wasn't sure if my 5-year old memories were correct.

As nasty as that bunker looks, I really can't see anybody getting into it without some sort of foozle--a duck hook (or "duck slice" for mollydookers), or a 'High Gladys" whiff into a bit of a breeze.  As you say, no person in their sane mind would take on that bunker, for the simple reason that it gives you zero reward for increased risk.  The play is to the right or middle, even when the pin is in its normal back left position.

Perhaps this is why they have let the bunker morph into a more users freindly one--it's "users" will be golfers who really need a "friend."

[Robert_Walker]

After seeing the old picture, I now understand why it is called a redan hole.

[A_Clay_Man]

How far is it to the bunker? I wouldn't travel all that way and not get in it. But I'd rather be in the old picture's bunker. Mostly cause I'm a sicko and love the explosion shot (ask Gib)
Is this where Pete Dye got his railroad tie signature? It sure looks like quite a few Dye holes I've played.

Kemper Lakes, outside chicago, has a hole with a corrigated steel wall adjacent to the green on one side and a pond on the other with a tapering strip of sand. I found the shot challenging and reminiscent of what I imagine playing the road hole bunker would be like.

[Dan King]

An old view from the tee:


From the picture, the golfer looks to be aiming well left (The white shoes also look out of place for the time.) Also looks like he might be a right-handed slicer. A right-handed slicer isn't going to hit the ball to the right and hope it feeds to the left. It will end up in one of the right-hand bunkers.

The smart play is to the right, but there are plenty of visiting American golfers who would go straight for the pin, knowing that is how American golf is played. Wouldn't it be much more fun if they then got stuck into an impossible bunker like the one pictured?

Dan King

"If your adversary is badly bunkered, there is no rule against your standing over him and counting his strokes aloud, with increasing gusto as their number mounts up; but it will be a wise precaution to arm yourself with the niblick before doing so, so as to meet him on equal terms."
  --Horace Hutchinson  (Hints on Golf)

[THuckaby2]

GREAT pics - thanks, Dan!

I am a right-handed fader (sorry, don't like to use the "s" word).  

I played right at the pin on THE Redan... the thought being that my natural rightish curve will take it where it needs to be anyway, which is middle of the green, and hopefully it will feed left from there... Unfortunately I overcooked the rightish curve, the s word occurred, and I ended up on the green but way on the right side.  Oh would that I could easily draw the ball....

I'd say that's the key to THE Redan, not the bunker.  If you can play a draw, you aim right and do so, knowing the left curve will be accentuated by the green.  If you can't, you hit it over the bunker and hope.

I'd do it the same no matter what the bunker is... the hole isn't that long to make me do otherwise.  

Also, I don't see the bunker being THAT much more fearsome in the old days, and the look of grass to me is more pleasing than the look of railroad ties... I can't tell, is the sand level that much lower (below the green level) in the old pic?  If that's the case, than great, the old way is better.  If it is the same - which it looks to me - than what's the difference what the face is?  No ball will stay on that grass bank, will it?

TH

[Dan King]

Tom Huckaby writes:
I'd do it the same no matter what the bunker is... the hole isn't that long to make me do otherwise.

A more recent example would be the sixth hole at Pacific Dunes. Almost all golfers will have a much shorter iron in their hand to that hole than from the tee at the Redan. But still, if you are going to miss, you want to make sure your miss is right. You'd have to be stupid, masochistic or TommyN to even think about flirting with those bunkers on the left. Get in them, and you may never get out. I bet more miss the green to the right than any other hole of equal distance.

Also, I don't see the bunker being THAT much more fearsome in the old days

Hard to say how deep that bunker is because of the angle of the camera shot, but judging from the steps and the length of the ties, it looks like you'd have to be at least 9-10 feet tall to see over the top from down in the depth. I've been in that bunker at the current Redan and remember being able to see the green , and I'm nowhere near 9-10 feet tall.

Besides, how easily do you think you could get out of that bunker with your trusty, whippy shafted, heavy-headed niblick. Or maybe you'd put one of these specialty sand clubs in your bag since you knew you were going to play Berwick:


and the look of grass to me is more pleasing than the look of railroad ties...

I love the look of ties.

No ball will stay on that grass bank, will it?

I know pictures tend to flatten, but I don't remember than grass bank being very steep. Maybe someone who has played it more recently would chime in.

Dan King

"The Redan at North Berwick is another fine hole which has been copied almost as often as the Eden at St. Andrews. The original hole can hardly be considered perfect, as it is too blind and there are too many bunkers which have no meaning, but the ideas embodied in the hole are excellent, and these ideas give an architect great opportunities of making interesting holes."
 --Alister MacKenzie

[THuckaby2]

Great stuff, Dan.

Oh yes, I'm talking about how I'd play it today, with my beloved L-Wedge at the ready.  Put the bunker back exactly how it was in the pic and I have no fear... that's all.  Play it with clubs like those monsters you picture and hell yes - I avoid that pit of doom at all cost!  I hadn't thought of it that way at all - thanks.

And GREAT example re #6 at Pacific Dunes, which just happens to be one of my favorite holes on this or any other earth.  Damn right - the cavernous death trap short left dominates all play there - if you care at all about playing the hole well, you miss that at all costs.  Make the bunker at THE Redan like that and then you have something.  I'm just not sure that putting it back to the status of that old picture would be enough... not with today's equipment, anyway.  You're gonna need twice as much depth (as they have at #6 at PD) to get the proper fear factor!

Re ties and grass, well... I'm not wholly against ties.  I just kinda like the look of the grass bank on this hole, that's all...

TH