Where should be the hardest hole(s) on the course be?

[Evan_Green]

There are many differing views on this:

From Ran's Beechtree Review: "As Gene Sarazen once remarked, the toughest golf should fall in the middle of the back nine and this is indeed the case at Beechtree (#15)"

Another approach is to make the 18th the hardest hole.

Other courses hit you hard early (Olympic).

Where do you think the hardest hole(s) in the round should fall?

[ed_getka]

I think anywhere from #5 to #14, although preferably on the back nine. #16 to 18 I find more interesting to be solid holes, without necessarily being the hardest. #16-18 at Pacific Dunes comes to mind as a finishing stretch I really like. You can't just cruise home, but the average player can still make something happen.

[Tom_Doak]

I don't think it should be the 18th.  It leaves a bad taste in the member's mouth to finish with a bogey all the time, and it's not an exciting tournament finish to watch everyone stumble coming in and fall to the leader in the clubhouse.

Exciting holes are those which can produce a big swing between players.  A "very hard" hole is often one which produces a few pars and a lot of bogeys.

[Mark_F]

Evan,

Anytime after a shortish one where the better player, or, indeed, most of us, mentally pencil in a birdie or par before taking the headcover off the driver.  

That gives both extra venom.

[TEPaul]

For match play I've always felt PVGC has it just about ideal---eg hole #13! And I like the balance of the much shorter, tempting #12 just before it.

[James Edwards]

Tom,

I was going to say the same about Shinnecock, with the tough 14th and 15th holes following the shorter 13th, and finishing with a solid par sequence of 5,3,4 and holes which are no push overs.

[Bill Gayne]

I perfer the level of difficulty to be like two mountain peaks with an alpine valley between them. By this I mean a tough stretch of holes for  4-7 and 12-15. Holes 1-3 and 16-18 as a gradual ascent and descent. I think of Portrush as a great  example of these peaks and valleys.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Bethpage Black has a relatively good mix--1 through 3 are relatively easy (even I was +1 through 4 there once, bogeying 1 and parring the next 3), 4 is difficult, but possible to make par or birdie with three good shots, then:
Five (difficult)
Six (Moderately difficult, without a good drive and second)
Seven (difficult)
Eight(Moderate)
Nine (Moderate)

10-11-12 (Look out!)
13(not too difficult, just long)
14 (just hit the green)
15,16,17 (very, very difficult, difficult, and difficult)
18 (not too difficult)

  So there is ebb and flow here.  In contrast, Bethpage Red starts out with a ball breaker (#1, 471 yds par 4), and then next 7 are relatively moderate difficulty holes--birdies and pars can be made.  
10-15 are strong holes, with 14 and 15 being the climax, if you will, requiring long, straight drives and long irons or fairway metals to the green, 16 and 17 ease up a bit, and 18 is very difficult into the south/west wind.  

There is "ebb and flow" here, too, but in a different pattern.  

I'm not sure if other Tillinghast courses are like this, but many courses collectively thought of as "good" have an ebb and flow to them; I would welcome contrasting opinions from mine on those two examples.  

[blasbe1]

the middle to end stretch of each nine.  

[JLahrman]

Tom,

Archie for Dummies question here.  Do you have much/any input into handicapping the holes on the courses you design?  Too many courses give the 1 handicap to the hardest hole, when the 1 hole should be the hole on which the stroke difference between a 7 and 8 handicap (or whatever) should show up.

So should that 1 handicap hole be the longest (the more shots per hole, the more likely the 1-stroke handicap difference is to show up)?  Or should it be on one of the what you call exciting holes?  A hole where the stroke average is a quarter over or under par rather than on the number for a scratch player.

[PThomas]

DEFINITELY not the 1st and probably not the last

[les_claytor]

I always loved a difficult 13th hole, Shaker Hts. CC being my first love in this regard.  Something about the number 13, and the final third of a round, says  the screws should really start to tighten!

[les_claytor]

JAL,  

It's been my experience that the regional golf association determines ratings, handicap holes, etc.  

Also my experience that where they set official tee markers, etc. can be dangerous if left unchecked!  

It's kind of weird that they waltz in at the end, usually with the Pro who's more concerned with setting up the shop, range and cart operations, and largely determine the card which is the first thing most players see.

[mike_malone]

Anywhere just not everywhere

[texsport]

7,8,16,17

[PThomas]

Dave -- I think I'd argue that 3 and 11 are at least a bit harder than #1 at Pasa...

tell you what I think would be a tought start:  Number 1 at Lytham, a 206 yard par 3....although Woosie nearly aced it before he found that extra driver

and getting way off thread, I would have fired that caddie right then and there , on the spot, and carried my own bag if I had to...