"Members Courses" - What are Mike and Mike talking about?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mayday said in reference to Hidden Creek, "A very good "members" course."

Mike Sweeney once said in the Mountain Lake essay, "a classic members course, now in the modern era."

What the hell is a "members course"?

Is it a complementary statement or a cheap shot?

Should we rank the "Members Courses"?

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

You may know what you're talking about, but the other Mike...well I'm not so sure.  He's been around the block, but I'm not sure if he appreciates much outside his backyard--RGGC    At least its a nice backyard!

[Craig Van Egmond]

Mike,

        I have heard it as both a compliment and a cheap shot.  Generally PGA players will say that when they don't think it could hold a championship or tour event, but that its good enough for the members.

       Don't you want your course to be a good members course?  Did you join it so that it can host a tournament once in a while?  

[mike_malone]

  I know one of the Mikes is clueless.


 

[Bill Weber]

A course that the challange never changes and rain or wind and pin placements only enhance's the experience.
Never quite having the same shot twice.
Being able to play 36 by yourself with no starting time and having the time for an additional 36 if physically able.
A staff that seems to truly care about your day.
Fellow member's you love to be with.
A mecca of escape.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I have maintainted that Augusta National was the ultimate members course;that is, pre-Fazio. I don't regard this designation as a slur or put-down. I mean it to be that the course is of high quality for everyday member play from the appropriate tees and potential tournament play from the tips.

[Michael Moore]

Easy course, will not cause you to post embarrassingly high scores, will not cause consternation to your business clients.

[mike_malone]

 Championship course-too hard for some

 Members course---not too hard for any

  Great course---- playable for all; challenging for the best

 Goofy course---Stone Harbor

[Mike_Sweeney]

I have often noticed that many of the "members courses" tend to be wider off the tee with a "preferred angle" to the green. Thus, the preferred route gives you a good chance at birdie/par and the miss hit off the tee route tends to yield more par/bogey or more. However, rarely are you hitting three off the tee. Often the key shots are into green sites with openings on the preferred side and steep hazards on the other side. Members courses also seem to often have interesting greens that need to be seen a few times to get a feel for. Basically they are hard to make big numbers of 7 or 8, yet breaking through a handicap is tough too.

[Ted Kramer]

Members Course - tough par, easy bogey
Championship Course - tough par, easy triple

-Ted

[ed_getka]

I think of a member's course as being not very challenging, hazards off to the side, greens relatively uninteresting (but usually really fast, because that is of course, the measure of a  good course ). Most importantly, after 5-6 rounds I never want to see it again. So I think of it as a derogatory term.

[George Pazin]

Somehow the expression doesn't seem quite as bad coming from Jack as it does from one of us.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I use the term quite frequently.  I don't think of it as a slur at all. There are some courses that are built with the distinct purpose of wanting a prestigous tournament.  There are other courses that are built for the enjoyment of the members.  Can a course do both: of course.  I have only played Hidden Creek twice.  My impression is that while it could be difficult from the back tees that is was built for the member's enjoyment.  It would be difficult to put many spectators on the course.

Baltusrol Lower is a championship layout that is enjoyable to play for most anyone.  I would not call it a members course but a course that serves multiple purposes.

This may not help but at least in my little mind it helps me make some distinctions.

[TEPaul]

Back in the old days and even to the middle of the "Modern Age" the difference between a "members" course and maybe a "championship" course was basically just a matter of real length differences. The exceptions were the likes of PVGC, Merion, Riviera, ANGC that were more than just about length because they were fascinatingly strategic designs mostly about some great greens.

Length used to make a difference to the Championship player but not anymore. The only way to control the great player today is to slap a championship maintenance meld on the course which is really all about an exact degree of green speed and green firmness. Only problem today is to control these guys the difference between the "ideal championshp maintenance meld" and "over the top" is getting narrower and narrower.  

[George Pazin]

Only problem today is to control these guys the difference between the "ideal championshp maintenance meld" and "over the top" is getting narrower and narrower.  

This might be the line of the year to date.

The biggest problem that I see with throwing the "member course" phrase around is that I think it indirectly encourages long slogs with lots of opportunities for lost balls, because these courses are very obvious in their challenge.

But as Tom D said in his writeup on TOC in the Confidential Guide..., people hit it into the Burn on #1 and don't even understand that TOC got them.

Similarly, people look at the lack of obvious penalty at a course like HC and they miss all the subtle penalties, like hitting to the proper side of the fairway or green. They just hit to the wrong side repeatedly, play indifferently, score mediocrely and don't understand why.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Sweeney,

I'd say that The Creek, Piping Rock, NGLA, Maidstone, Hidden Creek, are all "Member's Courses".

To me it conotes a "sporty" aspect rather then a long, back breaking championship test like Winged Foot or Baltusrol.

But, that's just my opinion.

[Tom_Doak]

Nicklaus actually called Royal Melbourne a "good members' course" when he went to play in their Bicentennial event in 1988.  I remember that because Ben Crenshaw told me he spent the next day and a half trying to defuse the situation and tell them it wasn't an insult.

[ed_getka]

Reading Hunter's Links has come in very handy lately.

"Without hazards golf would be but a dull sport, with the life and soul gone out of it. No longer would it attract the lusty and the adventerous, but would be left to those who favor some form of insipid perambulation, suited to the effeminate and senile."    (aka the member's course)

[TEPaul]

"No longer would it attract the lusty and the adventerous, but would be left to those who favor some form of insipid perambulation, suited to the effeminate and senile."

Wow, Robert, tell it like you see it Baby! 'Effeminate and senile' Back in your day I didn't think there was such a thing as political correctness. Why didn't you just come right out with it and call them fags and idiots?    

[Jerry Kluger]

I've been thinking about this topic for quite a while at the same time that Hidden Creek is being so thoroughly discussed and I think I have the answer.  A members club is one where you would look forward to playing in a stroke play event and by that I mean, it is a course where you could play very well but if you are not playing your best that day, you will still post a score after your round.  (No DNS)  This is perhaps is why I really like Hidden Creek as a steady diet but Galloway National would be hard to take on a regular basis.  A couple of bad shots at Galloway could simply destroy your day as not only will you post a high number on the hole, you will also have very few, if any, opportunities to get those shots back -- you will have to play a very defensive round unless you are a top player at the top of your game.

[Mike_Cirba]

I don't think Members course is an insult, or damning with faint praise.

I simply think it's a course that accommodates all levels of players (members), which generally denotes a course that is not overly penal, terribly lengthy, or stern and unforgiving.

It certainly doesn't mean it's a course devoid of architectural interest, at least to me.