News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Adam_F_Collins

With any creative act, some takes place in the planning and some in the process. There are inevitably things which are unforeseen and which have an effect on the outcome of the vision as it becomes a reality.

How is it in golf course architecture? Golf courses are big projects, involving a lot of people, a lot of money - and therefore - necessarily - a lot of expectations and pressure.

So many clients want that "Top 100" golf course.

So, how much of a surprise is the outcome for you?
• How many times has your vision been "bang on"?
• How many times have you missed?

• When have you ever been totally surprised by the outcome?

Have you ever had a moment when you said to yourself "You know, I am pretty damned good at this."?
« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 10:33:34 PM by Adam_Foster_Collins »

Larry_Keltto

Re:How much of a "surprise" is the Course to the Architect?
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2005, 10:42:52 PM »
Adam, this is a superb post.

One set of questions I'd like to add to yours regard difficulty. How does difficulty fit into the process and vision of the finished course? And how often do an architect's expectations in this realm hit or miss the mark? When they miss the mark regarding difficulty, what are the factors for why that happens?

George_Bahto

Re:How much of a "surprise" is the Course to the Architect?
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2005, 10:52:18 PM »
Adam: Aside from family, to see a one dimentional drawing you made, then laid out,  "grow" out of the ground just as you visualized it, was one of the most exciting things that ever happened to me.

(........ but you're almost afraid to return fearing what may have changed)

gb
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Adam_F_Collins

Re:How much of a "surprise" is the Course to the Architect?
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2005, 10:58:01 PM »
What was your experience, George? You sound as if you got to take one shot at designing one hole...

Tom_Doak

Re:How much of a "surprise" is the Course to the Architect?
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2005, 11:21:23 PM »
It is always a surprise to me.

Once I've got the routing done I can visualize and understand how the holes are going to WORK ... but I don't really see what they will look like or feel like.

I get the feeling that other architects know more in advance than I do, but only because they make the land fit their vision, instead of working with what they find.

Robert Emmons

Re:How much of a "surprise" is the Course to the Architect?
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2005, 09:10:04 AM »
Tom ...Thats a thoughtful reply...I appreciate your honesty...RHE

Jim Thompson

Re:How much of a "surprise" is the Course to the Architect?
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2005, 09:10:43 PM »
In my limited experience the biggest surprise comes when you realize how the holes work together as a course.  For so long they, the holes, are individual specific entities made of many intricate details, but the moment you realize how they compliment each other is huge.

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

Scott Witter

Re:How much of a "surprise" is the Course to the Architect?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2005, 01:03:25 PM »
A surprise... absolutely! more like a magical wonder really.

Most times, I think wow, did I really do that?  Fortunately or not, we haven't had the pleasure, or maybe not, of working with a client who wanted a top 100 course.  This really makes no difference how we approach our work.  But I guess similar only to Tom D. I see the routing very clear and the overall framework of how the holes will play, but I never seem to be able to truly see the nuances and the real character of the individual holes until closer to grassing and even then, I tend to change many areas to bring out, or enhance the character I may have missed earlier.

Unfortunately for us, we haven't hand a great natural site to work with, not yet anyway, but there is one on the boards, where we had the pleasure of keeping what we found.  I don't think too many golfers would enjoy playing across a pool table with standing corn on it, or hitting up a seventy foot slope to a green site, but then again I could be mistaken.

"I have never said I'm pretty damn good at this"  Maybe someone else may say this about our work some day.. but even if they did I wouldn't believe them, there is just too much to learn and too many ways to keep improving


Jeff_Brauer

Re:How much of a "surprise" is the Course to the Architect?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2005, 06:35:59 PM »
It is always a surprise to me.

Once I've got the routing done I can visualize and understand how the holes are going to WORK ... but I don't really see what they will look like or feel like.

I get the feeling that other architects know more in advance than I do, but only because they make the land fit their vision, instead of working with what they find.

Tom,

Been thinking about your answer for a few days now. Does this indicate you think in "shots" and not in "features?"

As to me, I am rarely surprised much, although it does happen.  Since I tend to think in features first, and then shots, I can visualize the finished product fairly well.  When I am artistically surprised, it often comes in the form of scale - sometimes bunkers are just too far or big for the greens, and sometimes they or their earthworks are too small.  Proportioin is the hardest thing to judge on plans vs. 3-D in the real world for me.

I think my biggest surprise was how the contractor worked the rocks and boulders up at Giants Ridge so well.  Never having done a rock job like that, I had some nightmares that it just couldn't be done.  They solved my nightmares, although my client did gently remind me that it cost about $400K in change orders, the biggest budget miss I ever had....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George_Bahto

Re:How much of a "surprise" is the Course to the Architect?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2005, 09:31:38 PM »
Adam - no it was en entire course ......... a most interesting and exciting opportunity for me.

I’ve only “built” one single course - it was based on Raynor architecture (1999 - 2000).

Most here know what I have been doing over the past 10 years or so and all those visits to clubs and all those drawings I did (and still do) made it almost second nature during design and construction.  It was sort of, in my mind’s eye, reviewing  all I had seen and done.

The overall plan was to capture the strategies of play I wanted to portray to honor the architect, Seth Raynor, but just as important, to me, was to capture the “nature” and feel of their greens (all this in an extremely confined area - ..... developers and homes .... yuk !!).

It was, to me, an opportunity of a lifetime.

Yes, lots of changes during construction - more fine tuning than anything expecially around the  perimeter areas of the greens adn approaches ......  

But aside from all that it was, as stated, the incredible high of seeing this “thing” grow out of the ground as pictured in my mind - even more incredible was to think that people would be playing over this playground for years to come.

The greens were (are) not replications but were each, the essence of the ORIGINAL greens I had seen over the years.

Recently, a well known shaper/design-guy paid a visit to what I had done and his question to me (later) made me very proud.

(Paraphrased) ......  “George, when did you decide NOT to copy exactly the greens you’ve selected.”  (more or less) ....... this from a exceptionally trained eye. He is the only one who has caught that.

(I wouldn’t like to have it get around that I got a crash course (about 5 hours) on course building and most importantly, green building - pretty scary the first day but I jumped in with both feet and off we went)

I’ve been a very lucky guy.

Before I ever thought of actually building a course (I always wanted the restoration aspect) I often think of the dedication I wrote for my book about Mr. (respect!) C. B. Macdonald and his deeds.


     "In the overall scheme, man is only here on earth for but a wisp of time.  Most of us go through life working, raising a family, honoring our country and responding in good turn to our fellow man.  In a short time we are gone and although we did much good, beside the family we leave behind, we leave little that endures the test of time.

     I admire the man who, through virtue of God-given or acquired talents, is able to leave his personal “mark” for others to admire and enjoy; a Shakespear or Poe who left behind us their written word; a Rembrandt or Rodin who left us the legacy of their magnificent works of art; a Beethoven or Mozart who left their music for us to enjoy.
     This book is dedicated to the golf course architects of the Golden Age who left us great classic courses to play over and enjoy - they cast their “footprint” on the face of the earth  - a golf course."
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Scott_Burroughs

Re:How much of a "surprise" is the Course to the Architect?
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2005, 10:36:14 AM »
Adam,

The course George designed (with Gil Hanse) is Stonebridge Golf Links on Long Island.  It was AOTD #355 here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=89

and the routing here:

http://stonebridgeglcc.com/guests/dsp_golfStats.cfm?course=1

Tags: