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Coral_Ridge

Municipal makeover
« on: April 12, 2005, 04:34:08 AM »
If the Billy Bell (others have updated it) course, Papago Municipal Golf Course (held U S Amateur Public Links in the 60's) in Phoenix had a makeover similar to Bethpage Black or Torrey Pines, how far would it climb in the rankings?  I have played this golf course a number of times over the last couple of years and I like it more each time.  Becoming familiar with a golf course tends to make you fond of it.  Let's face it, conditioning and lack of hazards hurt the public golf course and how it is viewed by the critics.  Papago has very interesting bunkering and the greens differ greatly with many pin options.  If it had the conditioning of a private golf club, it would have to climb way up in everyone's eyes.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2005, 07:23:41 AM »
Papago, like Philadelphia's Cobbs Creek, is a gem waiting to be restored. Money and politics are the issues.

Papago has detoriated in recent years. There is no money for winter overseeding. The newer muni, Aguila, has taken a lot of play from Papago. The city claims poverty.

There is a movement underway by civic and corporate leaders in PHX to get private funding to renovate Papago.A former Mayor of PHX is leading the group. It's possible some hotels may contribute in return for some tee times. Forrest Richardson, the golf course architect and a sometime poster here at GCA, is involved.

From the Papago mens golf ass'n:

"Well guys, looks like another year is just about over. Once again it has been a year where we have tried to consolidate. Like most clubs our numbers have taken quite a tumble in recent years and golf rounds at Papago are at an all time low. However, with the changes we have implemented hopefully we have turned the corner and will see improvements with our tournament numbers. We have 77 so far for November’s tournament. I realize it’s not the numbers we used to have but at least it’s a move in the right direction.

During the year Joe Huber forwarded a letter from the city stating massive improvements to the course would commence immediately and this year the whole course would be over seeded. Well we know they lied to us again. The pathways were done but not to the standard they said. The bunkers are still mostly a disgrace and they have only over seeded the tees and greens as a result of the ongoing drought. Yet they scratch their heads and wonder why the number of rounds played is way down. As they say, you don’t have to be a rocket scientist."

Cobbs Creek project, previously announced by the lease operator, is mired in Philadelphia politics.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2005, 11:07:45 AM »
Breaking news...

Meadowbrook is out of the Philly munis and is replaced by Liberty Golf as the leasee. Meadowbrook's plans to renovate Cobbs Creek using Norman Design are out as well. Details to follow.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2005, 11:43:32 AM »
Steve,

I was actually going to ask anyone on the board if they knew what was going on.

I tried to play at Cobb's on Sunday but couldn't track down their website... Golfphilly.com is no longer up and running.  I then went to the Meadowbrook page and the courses are not listed in their portfolio any more.


Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2005, 01:21:48 PM »
Apparently, Meadowbrook is cutting back their operations. I saw an article that they relinquished their lease for a few courses in Texas.Some of the local people from Meadowbrook are part of Liberty Golf which has its office at Cobbs Creek.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2005, 01:43:16 PM »
about a month ago i heard rumors that meadowbrook was out as the manager of not only cobbs, but all of phillys courses.

the city sent out a rfp to at least a few different management companies.  

would be interested to hear any more details..

jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

Mike_Cirba

Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2005, 03:51:32 PM »
I truly don't know if the latest Cobb's Creek management change is a good or bad thing.  If the present mayoral administration is involved, it's probably the latter, but hearing the Norman group's plans for "restoring" Hugh Wilson's design with "target bunkers" wasn't exactly nirvana either.

Thomas_Brown

Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2005, 04:08:59 PM »
Hermann Park in Houston - thoughts?

Matt_Ward

Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2005, 04:22:10 PM »
Jon:

I have played Papago a few times during my many visits to the Valley of the Sun. While the course does have possibilities it would be a stretch to say it has the potential of a Cobbs Creek. Cobbs Creek is an artful design by Hugh Wilson and has plenty of character -- thanks to a very interesting site.

Papago is a fine muni layout and clearly needs a helping hand. I don't see why the City of Phoenix can't apportion some kind of additional charge on out-of-towners and dedicate that money to the kind of updating that is sorely needed.

Papago is a course that could be that much more. If a "will" is present then a "way" can be found.

michael j fay

Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2005, 04:26:26 PM »
It would be nice to find a source of capital to resucitate Muni courses.

I played Wintonbury Hills recently and it is by far the best Muni I have played. It well could be the model for other municipalities.

When I look at a lot of the old Ross Munis like George Wright and Ponkapaug in Boston, Keney Park (Devereaux Emmett) in Hartford and all the municipals that Ross built through the Carolinas (Wilmington, Buncombe County) to Florida where some eight or so Ross munis exist I am ashamed for the City governments that they are so neglectful of the courses. I am aware that there are priorities for local governments but these precious old parks should not be forgotten. They should create a "Mental Health Fund" to restore these grand dames and do right by the public.

Parks are the Pride of a City and municipal golf courses are the best of parks.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2005, 05:49:48 PM »
Micheal

The source of capital must come from the municipality unless there is a community benevolent individual or group such as the one mentioned above in Phoenix. Unfortunately, most municipalities are crying poverty these days.
Here is an example of a recent project:
This course is listed in GD's Places to Play as 2stars. The architects listed are G. Pirkl/D. Brauer/E. Perret
   
   By Robert Ingrassia
4/13/2005    

   

Source: Saint Paul (Minn.) Pioneer Press

St. Paul spent more than $4 million renovating the Highland Park golf course, which opens for the first time since closing for construction in fall 2002. Whether the effort succeeds in reinvigorating the course depends on golfers like Mal and Bud.

A former regular, Mal Scanlan gave up on Highland Golf Course about 15 years ago. The greens were tiny, fairways stayed mushy for days after even modest rains and the whole place felt shabby.

Scanlan is back. He said he plans to be among the first to tee off at the renamed Highland National Golf Course.

"I stopped playing Highland because the place went into the tank," said Scanlan, a Highland Park resident who spends his days raising money for a private school. "Being from the neighborhood, it was frustrating watching them fix the courses at Como and Phalen. But they've made this a great golf course."

Bud Flanagan opposed the makeover. He said he thought the course he first played in the early 1930s was just fine. He didn't like having the course closed for two summers and he didn't like the idea of paying higher greens fees.

"When the fee jumps like that, it becomes too costly for seniors," said Flanagan, a retired airline manager and former Highland resident who now lives in downtown St. Paul.

The new weekend greens fee will be $39, up from $28 when the course closed. Despite the hike, city officials said they are confident there will be a lot more golfers with Mal's opinion than with Bud's. The project converted Highland, one of three 18-hole city courses, into a "premium" municipal course that will compete with newer suburban rivals.

Before the makeover, Highland's poor condition drove away golfers, said Bob Cotie, the course's head professional and manager since 1978. The number of rounds played at Highland eroded steadily from more than 50,000 per season in the early 1990s to about 38,000 in 2002, he said.

"We realized we had some serious problems out here," Cotie said. "The course just wouldn't drain, and it was getting worse."

The drainage problem was more than an annoyance. With holes 12, 13, 15 and others too wet to play after rains, Cotie often had to close the course or limit golfers to the front nine.

Small-scale attempts to fix the drainage issue failed. Five or six years ago, the effort to overhaul the course began in earnest. Ultimately, course designer Gill Miller Inc. of River Falls, Wis., settled on a plan to redo every hole.

The centerpiece of the plan was the creation of a 10-pond drainage system. The ponds are intended to not only keep the water off the fairways but also add new challenges to the course. For good measure, designers added a Snoopy-shaped bunker on the 15th hole in honor of "Peanuts" creator Charles Schulz, who grew up in St. Paul and once caddied at Highland.

"The golfers are going to love it," Cotie said. "This is a first-class course."

If 50,000 golfers agree, the project will have succeeded. That's the number of rounds needed per season for the course to start making money, Cotie said.

The work cost $4.5 million. The city borrowed the money to pay for the project and will use greens fees and revenue from a new driving range that opened last year to repay the debt. The borrowing took the form of revenue bonds, which means no city property taxes are pledged to pay off the debt.

City Council Member Pat Harris, whose 3rd Ward includes Highland Park, said the project improved a public park without putting a financial burden on taxpayers.

"We needed to improve the product we offered the community," Harris said. "We could have done a smaller renovation, but full renovation provided a better product."

Although Highland celebrates a milestone Tuesday, the course's backers have another dream. Harris and others are working to secure about $4 million to renovate the clubhouse, a 76-year-old building. State lawmakers declined to include money for the project in this year's bonding bill. A committee of golfers, residents and community leaders is looking for other ways to get the project funded.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom Renli

Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2005, 11:21:31 PM »
It is exciting to hear that there may finally be some movement at Papago.  It may not have the potential nor lineage of BPB or some of the Ross courses, however I think it is as close as The Valley will get to a classic style layout.  Given this element of uniqueness and the central location/close to the airport, I think they could easily compete with the second tier courses.  They recently lost the Phoenix Open Monday qualifier if anyone needed confirmation that it is beyond neglect.

From a renovation perspective, I do not believe the routing needs to be changed nor lengthened.  The one weakness is the similarity of the par 5 dogleg right holes 1 and 10 that run parallel.  The following relatively inexpensive changes would go along way:

* Tree/vegatation cleanup and management.
* Quality sand in the bunkers.
* Grow quality firm turf with focus on green maintence.

If you have the funds, build a new clubhouse.  Seems very simple, am I underestimating the effort?

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2005, 08:55:42 AM »
Tucson has a very good municipal golf program- www.tucsoncitygolf.com - El Rio was recently renovated and now Silverbell is next:

Source: Tucson (Ariz.) Citizen

The Silverbell Golf Course at 3600 N. Silverbell Road (Tucson, Ariz.) was closed for renovations.

Local golf architect Ken Kavanaugh, who worked on the renovations at the Trini Alvarez-El Rio Golf Course, will work with Tucson City Golf at Silverbell. The course should be open by the end of the year, Kavanaugh said.

"It's hard to give a specific date because of weather factors," Kavanaugh said.

Five holes on the course - Nos. 3, 4, 6, 13 and 16 - are on an old landfill and they will be changed, as will Nos. 5, 7 and 17, said Mike Hayes, the city's deputy parks director in charge of golf operations.

"It's not going to be like El Rio, where we kept the same layout but did major work on the irrigation, fairways and greens," Hayes said. "Silverbell is going to be a different course when we are done, a better course."
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Eric Apperly

Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2005, 08:22:29 PM »
If anybody has further case studies where capital has been spent speculatively to generate higher business on municipal courses I would be very interested to hear about them.

Also situations where new facilities such as Driving Ranges etc have been used to fund capital works would be very interesting.

Cheers
Apperly

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2005, 09:23:30 PM »
 Becoming familiar with a golf course tends to make you fond of it.  

I'm think I disagree with this statement except for very good courses, but that's probably another thread.  


This is probably another thread too, but as far as very good munis that don't really need renovation, I just discovered Pine Ridge in Baltimore.  The abundance of wildlife and the way the reservoir surrounds the course make it unique in my experience.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2005, 12:48:16 AM »
Tom — I would not classify Papago as "The closest the Valley will get to a classic style layout..." Papago is classic, but only in terms of comparison to older courses in other locales. Papago is a great Bill Bell, Jr. layout...normal for Jr. when he had a great site. Arthur Jack Snyder oversaw construction and there is a lot of Jack in the greens especially.

I agree. The routing needs nothing. In fact, we have been steadfast on our opinion that all the course needs is "dusting off" — renovation, not remodeling. Perhaps a few new tees and some bunker shifts. About everything needs rebuilding. We would also restore the lagoons and streams which have been filled in since I was a kid. (I may even find a few of my old golf balls!)
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2005, 08:02:50 AM »
Forrest

Is there any positive movement to getting the Papago project done in the near future?

Steve
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2005, 09:27:39 AM »
No. 7 had a lagoon inside the dog-leg. Small streams ran across 6, 14, 15, and 13. The pearched lake at No. 9 is quite a problem. I have always felt it should be lowered to bring in the water surface off the tee. Also, on No. 9, there is considerable reason to expoand the fairway to the left. I would entice players at No. 9 to carry the water...leave it a short par-5 with a detour.

I am not bothered by No. 1 and 10... No. 10 has lost some bunkering short of the green (intensity.) No. 1, as you recall, has no bunkering until the green, which is OK because of the great swales and "waves."

Thanks for the Biltmore comments. Sounds as if the pins tucked quite off for an entire round.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Municipal makeover
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2005, 09:29:07 AM »
Steve — I have high hopes, but it depends on a lot of moving parts. Former Mayor John Driggs is leading the effort from the City's perspective. I know he is busy and motivated.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com