[Jim_Kennedy]

From the Sept. 2nd 1916 Utica Herald Dispatch:  

UTICA'S PROPOSED PUBLIC GOLF COURSE
 Since the Park Board proposed the establishment of a public golf course in Roscoe Conkling Park, interest in the proposition has increased daily. The other day Walter J. Travis laid out the course and his plan will be pictured in to-morrow's UTICA SUNDAY TRIBUNE- The course, as laid out by Mr. Travis, promises to be one of the finest of its kind in the country. The Tribune's description of the course will be the first to be published.

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Process%20Small/Newspapers/Utica%20NY%20Herald%20Dispatch/Utica%20NY%20Herald%20Dispatch%201916.pdf/Utica%20NY%20Herald%20Dispatch%201916%20-%203779.PDF#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=6fb32209&DocId=12707489&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=7&hits=12bd+12be+12bf+12c0+12c1+12c2+12c3+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf

Today there is still a golf course in the park, and it's described as:

Valley View Municipal Golf Course was first designed and built in the mid-1920s. The Course was subsequently redesigned in 1939 by Robert Trent Jones, Sr. and reopened in 1940. The Clubhouse was finished in 1960 and has been completely remodeled in 2003  

Their website:  http://www.cityofutica.com/Entertainment/Attractions/Valley+View+Golf+Course.htm

I've been looking for the drawing, but with no luck so far.

Is this another unknown Travis course?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Here's the Travis plan. If you match this up to the modern course it appears that more of his course ran along Memorial Pkwy.

I hope this is new info, my fingers are worn to the nubs. 

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Process%20Small/Newspapers/Utica%20NY%20Sunday%20Tribune/Utica%20NY%20Sunday%20Tribune%201915-1917.pdf/Utica%20NY%20Sunday%20Tribune%201915-1917%20-%200759.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=40c8177c&DocId=12810971&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=18&hits=a+b+c+d+18+1e4+829+82a+a7c+ea6+ea8+ea9+eaa+eac+ead+eb1+eb3+eb4+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf

[Dan Boerger]

Jim -  This is great stuff.

I grew up in Utica and spent much of last week there [sadly, we lost my father].  I will reach out to some Utica area golfers to see what, if anything, I can uncover.

I can tell you that the Valley View course, as it exists now, has some nice holes but is one of the most poorly run courses I've ever experienced.

I didn't mention this on the Yahnundasis thread, but I was reminded that the first few holes of that course were altered in the 50's due to a road [commonly called the 'arterial'] going through. Yahnundasis also has some terrific holes, but one very strange one. The third is a a par 4 blind tee shot and then blind approach shot.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Dan,
Sorry to hear about your father.

After a 1914 article suggested that a municipal golf course be built in Roscoe Conkling Park the town took up the cause, but it appears that the town never allocated enough resources to complete the course until sometime in the early twenties.
For a time they considered using "dirt" as putting surfaces and by September, 1917, they only had 1/4 of the acreage seeded for first nine fairways. An article titled "PARK GOLF COURSE IN UTICA SEEMS LIKE DREAM OF YEARS" lamenting the slow progress and underfunding appeared in August of 1917, and it mentions the war as having an impact on the progress.

I'll IM you the articles, and I'll also send them to Ed Homsey. 

[Ed Homsey]

Jim--This is definitely a new "find".  The Travis Society has had no information suggesting that Travis did work in the Utica area other than Yahnundasis.  I imagine there's a connection, i.e. he spent a lot of time in the Utica area, with his friendships and work at Yahnundasis.  Thus, he was probably a known entity to those responsible for the Roscoe Conkling Park project.

Interesting course plan.  It is the earliest Travis golf course plan I have seen, and seems very primitive in comparison to the several early 1920s course plans.

Thanks for all of your efforts in the Stamford and Utica finds.

[Jay Flemma]

no valley view is NOT built in roscoe conklin park...Conkliin Park is further north and east than Valley View.  I know because I was a member there for years and lived a drive and an 8-iron from VV..on the Memorial Parkway as it happens.  Valley View is due west of my house by about 450 yards.  Conklin Park is north and east.

Moreover, a review of the article doesn't seem to match up at all with a description of the site on which VV sits.  Lastly, the years don't match.  VV was originally built in the late 20s, but the course history as told by their historian says that the designers were locals whose names were lost to history.

There is no architecture there to speak of, so it's really not worth a visit except to play 18 holes for 20 bucks in three hours fifteen minutes.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jay,
If you read the articles you would see that you are mistaken, and there is an overwhelming amount of evidence proving that.

The Travis map of the course (when rotated 180 degrees, putting Memorial Pkwy at the 'top') fits perfectly fits into the existing aerial view of Roscoe Conkling Park and the (many)articles speak of the town constructing the course in RCP. The articles show that the course was built along the east and north sides of the Park, which is located south of Memorial Pkwy.

The course was completely rebuilt in 1938 by RTJsr., so I would suspect that nothing of Travis' plan remains.

Ed,
Looks likeTravis also did some work at the Utica Golf and Country Club. UG&CC seems to have been built without the help of an architect and without any hazards. A Sept. 25th article in the Utica Sunday Tribune states that the bunkering  at UG&CC  “will be done next spring either by Donald Ross, the hazard authority, or Jerome Travers,  the famous golfer.

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Process%20Small/Newspapers/Utica%20NY%20Sunday%20Tribune/Utica%20NY%20Sunday%20Tribune%201914-1915.pdf/Utica%20NY%20Sunday%20Tribune%201914-1915%20-%200943.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=6f4ace4b&DocId=12810036&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=25&hits=6+7+8+9+a+54+55+56+57+58+19e+19f+1a0+1a1+1a2+269+26a+26b+26c+26d+66d+66e+66f+670+671+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf

But the Utica Herald Dispatch from Oct 5th 1915, places Walter Travis* at Yahnundasis and then at Utica golf and Country Club  “…for the purpose of offering suggestions as to the improvement of the course by the erection of artificial traps, hazards and bunkers”

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Process%20Small/Newspapers/Utica%20NY%20Herald%20Dispatch/Utica%20NY%20Herald%20Dispatch%201915.pdf/Utica%20NY%20Herald%20Dispatch%201915%20-%203219.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=1ee1495f&DocId=12702676&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=5&hits=596+597+598+599+59a+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf

*there were two separate articles mentioning Travis at Utica. Perhaps his local connections secured the job for him over Ross or Travers.


 In 1921 Francis Ouimet and Fred J. Wright won an exhibition match against the “Sherman boys”, Sherrill and Tom. Francis not only established a new course record, the club also made him an honorary member.

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Process%20Small/Newspapers/Utica%20NY%20Herald%20Dispatch/Utica%20NY%20Herald%20Dispatch%201921%20pdf/Utica%20NY%20Herald%20Dispatch%201921%20%203762.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=ffffffffd9b6fa85&DocId=12731722&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=5&hits=61+62+63+64+65+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf

The club went public in 1927, when it was bought by Arthur Hind and Pat Casey, two “well known Uticans” for 150K
.
http://www.fultonhistory.com/Process%20Small/Newspapers/Oswego%20Palladium/Oswego%20Palladium%20Oct-Nov%201927%20pdf/Newspaper%20%20Oswego%20Palladium%20Oct-Nov%201927%20-%200576.pdf#xml=http://www.fultonhistory.com/dtSearch/dtisapi6.dll?cmd=getpdfhits&u=5a3bb192&DocId=11359068&Index=Z%3a%2fFulton%20Historical&HitCount=5&hits=edf+ee0+ee1+ee2+ee3+&SearchForm=C%3a%5cinetpub%5cwwwroot%5cFulton%5fNew%5fform%2ehtml&.pdf

Today UG&CC is known as Twin Ponds G&CC and it is public. There is a slide show at their site which shows a parkland course w/ground hugging greens.

 

[Jay Flemma]

No Jim, YOU are not correct.  The description of the property does NOT fit with the property where Valley View is and the time period does NOT match by several years.  Valley View is not built on Conklin Park.

Valley View is built on a tiny parcel that happens to include a gigantic hill that has one hole running straight up it, then three more, and another coming straight down.  If you bother to read the description, you'll see no reference whatsoever to what locals call Cardiac Hill (named after the death of Eli Salamy, who climbed up the third hole, walked the half mile to the 4th tee, then dropped dead of a heart attack after hitting his tee shot and putting the tee behind his ear...he did that all his life, it was his trademark.  Guys stopped doing it at the club after he died out of superstition.)  Its also not on the map.  The rest of the property is so small and the course so short, it couldn't hold 18 holes on its own.

However, as you DON"T know as you're not a local, after Valley View, Memorial parkway continues east, but also winds it way north.  Conklin park is further up...still to the south side of Memorial parkway, but actually east and north of Valley View.  If you keep going, you'll find several other parks as well like proctor park.

Twins Ponds is a local course barely above a pitch and putt, but club pro Kevin Roman came out of it, so they have that going for them.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jay,
You're mistaken, you haven't read the accounts.

[Jay Flemma]

No...the accounts just don't add up to what you say they do.  Valley View was built in the late 20s. Travis did plans in 15-16...there is too much time in between to just make the leap of logic that what he planned was even built, let alone in the same location.  You have nothing to connect that the course was actually built and built where the piece says, you need more.

And did you notice this is the same Old Utica paper article bragging about the new course being world class?  Sound like what we have to deal with these days every time Trump or Fireman or Oneida Nation builds a course?  Using your logic, all the local NJ articles written now about how great Liberty national is would lead a reader 100 years in the future to just acceopt on their face that it was better than Augusta National:)

There really is no difference anyway...RTJ completely erased whatever was at Valley View back when he redesigned it.  The best holes there are 11 and 17.  11's a string par-4 with a semi-blind drive and a green benched into a wedge by a stand of trees.  17 is a good par 4.5 to a green that slopes severely away from the player.

That's one thing VV does have...a couple curvaceous greens like 2 and 8 and some good one's that slope away like 9 and 17.  18 looks like a redan,  but the green is back to front...not back to front.  there's also no kickplate.

twin Ponds regularly sees guys shoot in the low 60s...sometimes the 50s.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jay,
As I said, you didn't bother to read the articles. The town had problems building the course from the start, and was underfunded. They picked it up again in 1922, I believe the article said, and went ahead with the construction.

No one has ever said any of Travis' work remains, that's not the point. The point is that Travis planned a course for the town and the town eventually built it.

You may live there, but that doesn't necessarily mean you know what you're talking about.

The records, volumes of them, speak for themselves.

[Jay Flemma]

No, you make an unsupported leap of logic...you have NO PROOF that the drawing from 1915-16 was what got built on the ground many years later. n Where arde the articles from opening day?  After trumpeting about how the course would be so great, there should have been more articles about building a course designed by the Grand Old Man.  What happened was they didn't have the money, tabled the project, then years later moved it a little ways (not far) and built something designed by someone else that was more affordable.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jay

You said that: “Valley View is not built on Conklin Park”  and you are mistaken about that.  

You also said that: “However, as you DON"T know as you're not a local, after Valley View, Memorial parkway continues east, but also winds it way north.  Conklin park is further up...still to the south side of Memorial parkway, but actually east and north of Valley View.  If you keep going, you'll find several other parks as well like proctor park.”

To address your first erroneous statement:
An article  from the 1942 Utica Daily Press about Valley View golf Course says this :
A heavy decline in attendance is the reason assigned by Fred J Graff for the decrease in revenue of the Valley View Golf Club of which he is president…The club operates the municipal golf course in Roscoe Conkling Park and annually makes a contribution to the treasury in lieu of rent.
A 1941 article from the same paper states:
Utica's revamped l8-hole municipal golf course in Roscoe Conkling Park will be ready for play about June 15.
The article goes on to explain that play over the existing course will be impacted and that they were not going to expend any money on the old holes.

To address your second erroneous statement:
The December 1925 Utica Observer noted that Fred Graff and the golf committee were going:  “to put the nine-holes  in Roscoe Conkling Park, at the head of Clementian Street, in the best-condition possible… for the upcoming season of events”
                                                                              NORTH
 
                                                                             SOUTH
As a Utican  you should know that Clementian St. is located at the NE corner of the park.
Roscoe Conkling Park does not lie “further up” Memorial, nor does it lie east of Valley View.  It lies west of Valley View and the park’s eastern border is at Clementian and Valley View, so you’ve also got your locations and directions mixed up.

The town took several years to build the course. They started in 1915, ran into some trouble, were sidetracked during WW1, then took up the project again when it was over.  
You’ll have to actually take the time to read the articles that have been posted to find out when the course opened, the answer is in them.

You say you live/lived in Utica, but you didn’t know that the original golf course was built in Roscoe Conkling Park. You didn’t know that Valley View Municipal GC was part of Roscoe Conkling Park. You didn’t even know the correct location of Roscoe Conkling Park. Hell Homey, you didn’t even spell it correctly.
You haven’t gotten anything right so far, you haven’t delved into any of the printed material to gather information, you haven’t done any searches, and your poor understanding of the facts presented so far in this matter destroys any credibility you thought you had, making your last statement….“What happened was they didn't have the money, tabled the project, then years later moved it a little ways (not far) and built something designed by someone else that was more affordable.”

…..worthless.

[Jay Flemma]

...and I notice there isn't a single mention in all of that about it being a Walter Travis design, is there?  Nor do you mention that Roscoe Conklin park was actually moved as well.  They had to move the statue too.  The school named after him is down near culver ave.

As usual you prove apes may read philosophy, but they still don't understand it.  It's a good thing for us you're not a doctor.

...and I don't know what dyslexic llama made that map, but it's Clementian AVE, not Street...

We're gonna find out for certain what happened because I spoke with Bob Jones and he's getting me everything his dad had on Valley View.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jay,
The map of the plan Travis made for the course has been posted.

The statue of Roscoe Conkling that was moved is located in Madison Square Park, NYC, not in Roscoe Conkling Park, Utica.

As usual, you once again prove that your lack of research  leaves you unprepared for any meaningful conversation......and once again you resort to abasement when your shortcomings have been exposed. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

"...and I don't know what dyslexic llama made that map, but it's Clementian AVE, not Street"
-Jay Flemma


There are 641,000 hits for Clementian St. in Utica.

There isn't one for Clementian Avenue in Utica anywhere on the world wide web.

As I said, totally unprepared, and it seems that you are also willing to make stuff as you go along. 

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