News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Kyle Harris

Take Two... but still scared...
« on: February 10, 2005, 09:51:37 PM »
Alright, here's my nine hole design again...

I made this two years ago for a course architecture class I took at PSU... I have some changes I would make, but what do you guys think?

« Last Edit: February 10, 2005, 10:09:39 PM by Kyle Harris »

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2005, 09:57:46 PM »
 8)
number the holes

give me some scale

label the topo lines better

give me a card with three tee yardages and lines of play...

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2005, 10:00:01 PM »
Kyle,

I think this is the type of thread which could be great fun and good food for thought for a lot of us, so I appreciate you putting it up. However, in this form the image is kind of hard to comfortably make out -

Maybe there's another way you can display them...

I don't know if other people are having difficulty seeing the design clearly.

Kyle Harris

Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2005, 10:06:50 PM »
Comign right up... here's a higher resolution



First hole: Left to right along the top... 391/364/348
Second Hole: Down and to the left... 436/388/367
Third Hole: Across road (upper hole of shared fairway) 538/523/483
Fourth Hole: Upper left corner, down and to the left 188/167/132
Fifth Hole: Below fourth, plays down and to the right 356/323/285
Sixth Hole: Short hole same direction as five 162/155/114
Seventh Hole: Above Fifth and sixth: 427/404/337
Eighth Hole: Bottom of shared fairway: 513/502/463
Ninth Hole: Across road heading back toward clubhouse: 408/389/352

The clubhouse is above the lake in the center and just above the club house is the practice green. North is up and to the right. The Eastern half of the course is subject to expansion, which is why there is room around holes 1,2 and 9 for a possible 10th and 18th.

I'd be moving the third hole's landing area north into the clump of trees which I would cut back. The first tee is the highest point on the map. With contour interval being 5 feet (Each contour represents five feet of elevation).

TEPaul

Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2005, 10:14:29 PM »
What I'd recommend Kyle, just with a cursory look, is in those more topographical areas----widen things out as much as possible! Some of us Behr advocates have come to call that "gravity golf" which just may be one of the very best forms of golf!

Kyle Harris

Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2005, 10:17:32 PM »
You really can't see the faint pencil markings, but I did cut into the side of the hill a bit for holes five and six, I wanted some slope, but nothing unplayable, and certainly not enough that a well struck shot would roll off the fairway.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2005, 07:07:53 AM »
Not bad at all, Kyle!
I have four 'observations' which you might like to consider (or totally ignore!!)

1. Wee bit of 'right and leftism' of your bunkering. Read more MacKenzie!! (think more of strategic value placement for bunkers).

2. Maybe just a drafting convention but your bunkers all appear to be set in the rough. Would look better if you let the fairways 'run' into the bunkers to allow the ball to do the same.

3. Assuming these are 5ft contours(?) that landing area on the fifth is still a tad steep!

4. And most importantly - erase those cart paths before posting ANYTHING on GCA (or prepare to feel the righteous vengeance!!)

Consider it marked at about an A- though!!

 ;)
FBD.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2005, 07:08:32 AM by Martin Bonnar »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Kyle Harris

Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2005, 07:57:33 AM »
Hehe thanks, we did have some "developer requirements" to consider, including cart paths.

I decided to save the ethical debates for a philosophy class or a time when I wasn't paying for thr grade.

I would reconsider a number of the bunkers I placed, and yes bring the fairways out to them, espcially one or two on the second hole, and the lower one next to the seventh green.

If you note on the eighth hole, the green is angled such that it is more reachable in two from the area of the third hole's landing point. Placing the three bunkers between three and eight in direct line of play, and and also placing the two that are through the connector fairway in play.

I also hate the pond to the left of nine, but alas, another "Developer requirement."

Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2005, 09:46:07 AM »
Kyle - I wouldn't be too scared with putting this up, it's a decent effort in my book but what do I know -- I never built one of these things, so take my comments with a grain of salt as well.

Did the entrance road have to go where you put it? I'm just not digging the walk from 2 to 3. You probably didn't like it either.

If #4 is your attempt at a Redan, it looks pretty decent.

If #5 is as downhill as it looks, I would throw a bunker out there dead in the middle of the fairway just to make someone thing a bit.

I like #8, but what if some of those bunkers by the green actually came out into the fairway (or, heck even broke it up) so a guy really had to make a decision if he wanted to lay up short of them and wedge on or go for the green.

You mentioned the lake on #9 as a requirement. From that tee (and even if you moved it more left) you could get a pretty decent Cape hole. So, I would take out those two bunkers on the left and bring the fairway as close to the lake as you can. Then, move that greenside bunker complex to front right, so the guy who challenged the lake would have an open look.


Kyle Harris

Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2005, 10:06:33 AM »
Love the idea regarding the ninth and it becoming more of a cape hole. I could move the tees closer to the entrance road to increase the angle as well. The two bunkers were met to prevent balls from going into the lake, but if this is to be a cape hole, then they can go.

I was hesitant with calling the fourth a Redan, but I wanted that "look" as it were. I don't think it would play the same. (Green contour being the main reason) By the way, the view from that tee is incredible. This is an actual plot of land just below the University Park Airport at Penn State's Main Campus, and you can see the whole campus and Mt. Nittany from where I put the fourth tee.

The entrance road had to come from a certain area spot as the land to the north is owned by the UPark Airport.

If I get the time I will post more of my work... individual holes and three holes progressions we did.

As for the fifth, I believe placing a bunker on the upslope and biased toward the left part of the fairway would work out well. Something you can choose to try and drive over or tack around... with the danger being aiming too far down the hill. That hole is my attempt at a "Mae West" hole like the one at Belair... You can't see the mound symbol I put in front of the green.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2005, 10:10:44 AM by Kyle Harris »

Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2005, 10:12:16 AM »
Kyle - If this is next to Penn State, I can't beleive you didn't design a bunker or something that resemebled the face of JoePa.  ;D

Kyle Harris

Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2005, 10:13:53 AM »
We could rake furrows like at Oakmont for wrinkles!

I could make a five fingered paw green complex...

(Penn State uses the five fingered paw to differentiate it from Clemson's four fingered tiger paw... since PSU apparently copied that from Clemson way back in the day. Coincidentally, Clemson's golf course has a "four fingered paw" green complex... so that would be in line with the trend)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2005, 10:18:31 AM by Kyle Harris »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2005, 10:43:54 AM »
Kyle,

I hesitated to respond, and didn't have the time until sleeping in this morning, but here goes, from a professional viewpoint.

First, for a "Tribute" Paw Bunker, visit the 5th hole at Colbert Hills at KSU.....and add a toe.....However, cartoon artists will tell you hands just look better with fewer digits.

I would focus on the routing first, getting it just where it works before any more thought went into bunkering.  I think the pattern works, but wonder if you draw cross sections if you wouldn't find:

Hole 1 - Middle tee is on hill, and will require some fill for the back tee. Not a killer, and I've done it to get necessary/desired length, but probably more natural just to put the back tee on the hill top.  

1 Green is in a swale.  Pushing it east (assuming north is up) to where the center is 150 or so feet from the property line makes the green present better, and alleviates drainage problems.

Hole 2 - This is a difficult reverse slope dogleg.  If the tee pushed southeast right to the property line, it would open up the view down the fw compared to where it is located.  Was there anything preventing playing across to the south of the swale, so that the tee shot would be playing into the upslope across the creek?  The hole might work better on that flatter ground.

Hole 3 - The road ideally runs right on the hilltop. This gives room to spread 3 tee out, and lengthen the hole.  It could be combined with nine tee, and/or let the champ tee play over a little used entrance road for "old time character." It also raises the tee at least 10 feet, providing a better look over the knob between the tee and true landing area.  It will probably still need to get cut anyway, but you need fill material from somewhere.   And, it appears your first dogleg point calls for a 8 iron or so.  It really should be somewhere further out.  Overall, the hole uses the topo great!

Hole 4 - Good par 3. If you aren't against taking out a few trees, the green could slide north to the top of the knob, providing a rare perched green.  All of the others seem to be nicely cut into hillsides, so why not make this one a bit different?

Hole 5 - You are dealing with excessive cross slope.  Its possible that moving the fw sw to find the gentlest contour will make the hole grade out a bit easier, but conceptually this hole is great.

Hole 6 - As mentioned, the 3/7 tee area is really too tight.  However, this green works anywhere along that slope equally, and actually, playing more perpendicular to the slope, across the valley makes it present better than parallellling the contours, so I would move it south to open up some room.  Again, the green sits now in soft swale, and moving it south to the little rise in the slope there minimizes drainage problems.

Hole 7 - With the room created by moving 3 tee and 6 green, get the tee to where 8 green sits now.  As is stands, its in a valley, sitting at about 1220 (same as dogleg) with a 1255 inbetween, meaninga 25 foot cut.  From the hilltop, this is reduced.

Hole 8 - Again, tee is in swale, but there is room behind it to elevate and dry out the tee, while gaining some par 5 length.  I understand you may prefer this late hole to be a gambling hole, but in my revisions, 3 and 6 would be equal lengths but play in opposite winds, meaning they would never play the same length, except in a crosswind.  Also, while you would need to cut the 1270 knob more, 8 green could be shortened up off the very top of the hill to the midslope to attain the length you wanted.

Hole 9 - There is more potential on this hole than putting the lake outside fw bunkers, whether its a cape hole, double fairway, etc.  You could also consider shifting the green east, as it would move down the hill, slide by the ch and be more visible.

Just my thoughts.  If it makes a consolation, I don't finish a routing on less than a dozen tries and as I said, this is a good pattern for a first run.  I just know that if it was real, and you walked it in the field, you would probably see better ways to do things.

Just my $0.02. Hope it helps.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kyle Harris

Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2005, 10:55:42 AM »
Jeff,

That was absolutely marvelous of you to itemize like that. The extent of my technical knowledge at the time regarding golf courses was three credits in turfgrass and Michael Hurdzan's "Golf Course Architecture and Construction" so your input about the more technical aspects of green and tee placement and construction is much appreciated. I did walk the site, but not nearly as thoroughly as should be done to give any golf design fair treatment. I spent maybe 6-12 total hours on site, which isn't much at all. I found a few specimen trees and tried to approximate their location on the map using GPS, to some success. I have a better picture of the holes in my mind and I admit some of my placements may have been off re: the map, but dead reckoning with a compass, GPS, and my own abilities as an Eagle Scout, was trickier than I had anticipated.

Either way, I really appreciate the input and critique, so thank you.

TEPaul

Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2005, 11:45:08 AM »
Kyle:

Here’s what I’d do.

1.   Make it into a par 5 by going as far back as possible with the tees and going farther out and around the corner with the green. Make it a medium length par 5 with bunkering about 14-20 yards short of green.
2.   Bring green to rise where cart paths meet next to the road. Adjust the tees to get the same distance and to get near the border to get them behind #1 green
5. I can’t really tell about the slope of this hole but it looks like something you could   bring as wide a fairway all the way to the green and maybe around it creating “gravity” golf strategy on this hole.
7. Can you meld together the side by side portion of #7 and #8 fairways so the option of going up #8 fairway off #7 tee exists? Is there visibility? Keep the bunker arrangement between them going to make it an interesting arrangement off 7.
9. Move the tee up and left and use the diagonal of the right side of the lake as a progressive carry and the end of it as a longer one. Make the hole shorter.

I’m not very good at trying to design things off just topo maps so maybe some of these recommendations are disastrous. I can only really use a topo while on the land.
.





Adam_F_Collins

Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2005, 05:51:14 PM »
After reading a few more of the comments, I must say again that this is a great thread to have on the forum. So many visitors are armchair architects, so it's nice to see some interaction around designs that don't exist in the field (yet  ;)).

This way, there is no bias - except on the part of the designer. But if criticism is constructive, then it can be a lot of fun.

Maybe more of us can venture to put up our designs in the future.

For myself, I found that it was best to create two windows, one to look at the map - and one to read comments. That way, I could go back and forth easier and understand what people were referring to.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2005, 11:19:30 PM »
Kyle, I hesitated to make negative comments because I respect your courage to put yourself and your ideas out there for critique.  That combined with my knowing I'm just like most of the rest on GCA and nothing more than an armchair archie.  But, with all due respect, as a card carrying member of the amatuerist armchair architects association of America...(AAAAof A) ::),  I think you ought to take a semester off, then quit.  I fail to see any sense in your use or interpretation of the elevations and contours as presented.  For instance as was pointed out, how do you play a long par 4 (2nd) to a >than 10% reverse cambered LZ that runs right into bunkers at the dogleg?  How do you play from about 1270 tees on 9 to an LZ that is higher on right side of FW and slopes ~10% into a lake that is higher than the tee, and the near end has a run off about 40 down a hill between the 9 tee walk out area to the 2 green?  I love shared FWs, but what is up with your idea of turning point distances off those tees, then demanding longer 2nd shot placements from those LZs.  I mean, Moe Norman used to like to hit his wedges first off tees then a 3 wood or driver into the green off the FW deck, but... ::) .   Did you plan on a great deal of grading cut and fills.  Your plans don't make your final grading elevations too easy to understand.  But, if you are laying this down relatively "lay of the land" I hope you have a contract with a bell manufacturer cause I think there just may be a few blind spots as presented.

I'd try to use more of the long flatter runs where the CH and driving range are for long golf holes that bend down or up at the green approach, and put the CH near the woods, and get the pond in a lower area of the property.  I'd use the slopes diagonally, but not as 10%+ LZ slopes.  But, maybe you contemplate more cut and fill shaping than I detect as portrayed.

But, these are just my first impressions, and I may be wrong...

« Last Edit: February 13, 2005, 11:14:08 AM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2005, 11:40:18 PM »

" But, with all due respect, as a card carrying member of the amatuerist armchair architects association of America...(AAAAof A) ::),  I think you ought to take a semester off, then quit."

Mr Daley:

I'm an amateur at this stuff as well.  Why not make your specific comments without the attacks?  I'd like to see more of these types of threads. Why should someone be subject to abuse for starting them?

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2005, 12:02:58 AM »
Jason, perhaps I was not plain enough that I was trying to approach a critique with humor, heavily sprinkled with self deprication and actually empathizing with Kyle.  I meant no personal attack and was trying to take off on Sam Snead's remarks about a fellow asking for advise on his golf game.  

We have had amatuer contests and take offs on the Golf Digest amatuer archie contest a number of times.  You are correct Jason that it is fun, and many of us would like to see and do it more.  Don't take my attempt at humor as a reason to be discouraged.

But, offered in a sense of friendly critique, I do stand by my observations that Ky's plan didn't make all that much sense to me.  If I could scan in some of my own doodlings, it would be more than fair that you all could take a shot at my ideas too.  I assure you there would be plenty of fodder for cracking jokes...  Alas, I don't know how to get the 1"=100' and 1=200 on 2ft elevations scaled down to a size to post and still be readable. :-\
« Last Edit: February 13, 2005, 11:14:59 AM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Kyle Harris

Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2005, 11:01:25 AM »
Well, in my defense, this was two years ago, and before I had much technical experience regarding grading and what not. Also, I did walk the nine a bit and hit a few of the shots in question... they aren't impossible and are quite doable.

You can't see most of the grading as the pencil lines got caught up in my rather poor rendering (Only had colored pencils to work with) but the landing areas aren't nearly as severe as they would seem on the map.

I was careless in getting the map from the scanner to here and there might be more vertical skew than in real life too.

Yes, I took some dares, which is VERY easy to do when you aren't working on a budget or with real money, so I realize a bunch of this may seem outrageous. Also, the turning points aren't set in stone, and I said in my initial post that the third hole was subject to some changes, in retrospect and after two years rumination. There is an interesting old springhouse foundation that I'd integrate into the third hole that would serve as an excellent hazard for the tee shot.

I will be posting more of my work from the more advanced class I took a semester later. Just using this to test the waters here - this was more my attempt to see how this sort of thing is accepted on the board, as I didn't want to seem to vain in posting my own work, but I am thrilled to see some of you are interested.

Next up will be my par four design sometime tomorrow... which I think most of you would love.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2005, 11:02:53 AM by Kyle Harris »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2005, 12:11:07 PM »
Kyle,

Never worry about the critics.  Especially people like RJ...he doesn't know shit about design...all he is interested in is what grass you will be seeding.... ;)

Jeff is the one to listen to.  He got me to jump into design from construction a number of years ago and I still ask him for advice these days.

You should have seen my first few routings...rubbish...absolutely rubbish.  Don't give up.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Take Two... but still scared...
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2005, 12:20:45 PM »
With all do respect Kyle, Brian doens't know shiite from lutefisk either, if there is even a difference... :P ;D

But, I defer to Brian as being one very passionate student and now practitioner of GCA.  The trouble is, if Brian don't get critical of his observations of your design, how you gonna learn?  Come on Brian, say something don't just sit there munching on your dried cod... ;) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.