Sutton Bay: One-dimensional routing?

[RJ_Daley]

I'll agree that Sutton Bay is walkable.  But, it is barely walkable.  I had played many 27 and 36 hole days this past year and walked, and I know I could make one loop at Sutton Bay.  But, I am pretty sure it would be the slowest 18 I would ever walk and play.  For a place like SB, where one probably won't find several 4somes going off in a row, perhaps the slow pace that the course would extract from those hearty enough to walk would be OK, if you weren't holding up a whole que of groups behind.  

But, my suggestion would be to have a darn good set of hot tubs back at the lodge compound (maybe they do and I didn't see them).  

Also, the idea of walking SB is sort of contrary to the idea of playing a couple of rounds a day as so many do at remote get-away lodges like that.  One round walking, and I think the rest of the day may find a boat ride and some fishing more attractive.

There may be some marathon runners in the GCA group like Kenny Cotner who could handle the challenge of hoofing it all day at SB, but man, just one round seems daunting enough of a challenge for this old fatso.

But it would be a really "good" kind of exhausted...

[Dan Kelly]

Lance, Sutton Bay is indeed walkable. My friend Rob and I enjoyed two consecutive windy and wonderful days walking the layout with our bags over our shoulders, enjoying one's another companionship and feeling the spirit of the game.

And let me assure you, Lance, that it is possible, if you decide to use the carts at Sutton Bay, to enjoy one another's companionship and feel the spirit of the game.

I wish I had the body to enjoy walking 72 holes in 36 hours at Sutton Bay, without the bursitis in my hips screaming bloody murder and my chronically painful left big toe crying out for mercy -- but I don't. And I'll be damned if that means, therefore, that I'm incapable of feeling the spirit of the game.

[Mark_Amundson]

Lance, Dan, Dick, Bill etc:

I am going to chime in only because I have walked more rounds at Sutton Bay than anyone.  A carry bag, 6 balls (just in case), a few tees and your are set for a great experience.  I agree that a cart to the path between 18 fairway and 1 tee is the way to conquer the 1.5 miles from the lodge to the 1st tee.  I have walked the course many times, playing 1-2 balls per hole and finished in less than 3 hours by myself and found it to be one of the most peaceful experiences of my life.  We had a day when the cart paths were unmanageable and had 14 golfers who desperately wanted to play.  We shuttled them to the first tee in 4 WD vehicles and they all finished in 4.5 hours or less.  The oldest person was 70 that day.  Matt Sutton who is 73 walked the course with a friend and played in 4.5 hours.  Is it the most simple walk in golf, no, but does every walk have to be "simple" and should every golf course be walkable for every person who wants to play the course?The opportunity to walk through the native grasses and see many types of wildflowers and cactus, and other things native to the prairie is a wonderful experience.  We will continue to add additional walking paths (for you Bill) as we go but will always have paths to get you from the tee to the fairway and the green to the next tee.  No one enjoys walking a golf course more than I do and no one enjoys playing a great golf course more than I do.  Sometimes to get the absolute best golf course on a site you have to sacrifice on the distance from green to tee a little.  The balance is critical so the player has the best expereince possible.  As I have said many times before, I am biased, but I know firsthand that Graham Marsh worked very hard to get the best golf course possible at Sutton Bay while always keeping walking in mind when he was doing the course.

Mark

[Mike_Cirba]

While Sutton Bay is blessed with one of the most beautifully remote sites for golf on the planet, I think anyone who compares it with, say Sand Hills, from a variety of routing perspective is mistaken.  It is clearly not the type of site where one can be dropped anywhere and find 100 workable holes in all directions.

Instead, it is a very challenging, fragile site, where constant and sometimes steep changes in elevation required a routing that sort of "threaded the needle" down the length of the property, never deviating too far from the thin line between very playable and hokey golf.  

When I was out there, we looked at a number of areas where a hole down towards the lake could have been attained, but always at the cost of the next hole needing to come back steeply uphill, too much so in most cases, or over fragile, rocky, ground with erosion and surface issues.      

[RJ_Daley]

That does it....  Mark, if I can get back out there this spring, I'll be on the first tee, stop watch in hand, a few clubs short of a full bag (more than 6 balls for me ) and I'll be chuggin along for a <4.5hr round.  Just have that chuck wagon ready when we get back to the house!

[Matt_Ward]

Bill S:

Speaking of Jim Engh and his lack of "walkable sites" might I suggest you play:

Redland Mesa in Grand Junction, CO

Lakota Canyon Ranch in Rifle, CO

Hawktree in Bismarck, ND

Fossil Trace in Golden, CO

I'll concede Santuary in Sedalia, CO is untenable, but people can certainly walk Black Rock -- though many don't for their own reasons. If people think Black Rock is impossible then they should see what it's like handling Bethpage Black in the middle of any summer!

Bill -- I disagree with you big time on Engh being some sort of "novelty architect." If Sutton Bay is to be congratulated for winning Digest's Best New Private Award for '04 then equal air time and congratulations must go to Engh for winning that award several times with vastly different courses.

Jim Engh has designed an interesting mixture of courses -- yes, the focus is out west but that is where he's based. I see nothing "novel" with what he has done because, I believe, Mr. Engh graps the nature of shotmaking and tries to preserve some sort of balance between the low and mid / high handicappers.

Bill -- I enjoyed the tortured logic you applied concerning the true meaning of the word "routing." You simply jettison the notion of maximizing the greatest variety in holes, lengths and direction for a much more basic application of whether the course is indeed "walkable." Interesting -- but one I'm not buying.

Let me also mention that the "walk-ability" of Sutton Bay can only proceed AFTER you are transported to the 1st tee which is quite a bit removed from the actual clubhouse.

Mike C:

You raise an interesting point about the fragile nature of the site and from your own sleuthing you concluded no hole could be designed to go down to the Lake could be accomplished without climbing back uphill. I can't speak to what the architect and developemnt team may have done regarding such potential holes, but I can say I have seen sites much  hillier and more "ground challanged" than Sutton Bay and they were able to overcome this obstacle without causing the kind of slogs going back up in the other direction.

[Dan Kelly]

Mark --

Points well taken.

The course is walkable. (I said so in my first post on this thread.) Hell, I've seen
you walking it, with that skimpy bag of yours! So I know it can
be done.

But: Will you grant me that, in a group not all of whom are such good ball-strikers as you are, and who, therefore, will
be spending some time searching for balls, efficient cart use
will be quicker than walking? That was and remains my conclusion -- and it's no
knock, at all, on Sutton Bay.

If my conclusion is correct: If one's object, on visiting Sutton Bay, is to play as much golf as possible, the carts make that possible. I don't believe
our group this year, in October, could have walked 72 holes. I'm quite sure our group
last year, in October, couldn't have walked 72 holes in the daylight
hours available to us.

If one's object, on the other hand, is to walk ... and, while walking, to play as much golf as walking will allow: Walk! It won't, unlike some courses, kill you.

[Mark_Amundson]

Dan:

There is no doubt that if the objective is to play multiple rounds and maximize the number of holes played in one day a cart is the way to go.  I am a player that enjoys the game because it is challenging, self-rewarding, a great way to spend time with friends, etc. and I can find all those things while using a cart or while walking.

Matt:

There were many contraints on the site, all which directed Graham to the final result.  One of the most controlling factors was that a certain amount of land between the water and the course is owned by the Corps. of Engineers.  They were great to work with but the idea of a private landowner either purchasing some of their land or getting a long term lease on their land was a task that would have slowed the project to such a great extent we chose not to try to deal with them.  Secondly, as you get closer to the water the land gets more rugged, more unstable, more rocky, and the views get worse.  Many issues can be found on almost every project and in the end the owners and the architect have to make the best choices possible on move on.

Mark

[George Pazin]

The opportunity to walk through the native grasses and see many types of wildflowers and cactus, and other things native to the prairie is a wonderful experience.

This reminds me a bit (philosophically) of the discussion of Cape Breton Highlands and its walk through the park.

There are definitely courses that are difficult walks that are quite rewarding walks nonetheless. Ran, Mike Nuzzo, Paul Hermsmeyer & I walked Paa Ko Ridge after being advised no to, and I am damn glad we did. I thought it was a really nice walk, albeit a somewhat difficult one that I wouldn't necessarily want to attempt twice in one day.

Thanks for all of your open input, Mark. One of my favorite things on this site is when architects, developers, greenkeepers, principals, etc. share their passion and ideas with us. It definitely makes the site immeasurably better.