[Jonathan Cummings]

Excellent write up Mike.  You saw things I did not and thinking back, I agree with all your observations.  

JC

[TEPaul]

redanman:

I'm not sure how aware you are how completely "shaped" Militia Hill was. The fact that you probably aren't aware of it says a lot for Hurzdan and Fry, I suppose. Another local H&F course like Deerfield is much easier to tell how much massive shaping they did but who knows, maybe some could be fooled into not knowing that although I can't imagine how.

To me minimalism has two distinct meanings. One is very little earth moved on a site and the other definition is no matter how much earth an architect moved on a site it's very hard for even a good golf architecture analyst to tell. The problem with H&F to date (I've never seen Wren Dale) is they never fit in either category in the slightest. I've always thought their courses were fun and interesting to play despite that though.

I do disagree with you about Glenmaura. There's no question at all that the course was massively shaped but it plays really well! Glenmaura was a bit unusual in an earthmoving sense, as the hundreds of thousands of cubic yards they moved wasn't earth---it was rock slag!

In my opinion, Hurzdan and Fry are in their own unique category in the world of architecture which is both a good and interesting thing. But if Wren Dale is what some on here say it is it seems like they've tried something very different from what they always did previously.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jonathan;

Thanks for the nice words and for the tip on Wren Dale.  I'd certainly encourage others to head out there to see for themselves, and right now it's open to the public for a $50 fee that includes cart.  The folks there are really welcoming, as well.

Tom Paul;

I haven't yet seen Militia Hill, but I grew up about 10 minutes from Glenmaura National and you rightly point out the difficulty of that site.  I'm sure they should get some credit for creating a playable course there, but I'm not at all enthralled with the course.  Given the severely sloping property, virtually every hole had to be "ledged" into the existing slopes.  Unfortunately, I don't believe they did that in a naturally visual way, nor did they let some of those sideslopes come into play.  Instead, you end up with a sloping hill in the left rough, a dead flat fairway filled in, and a falloff to obvlion in the right rough.  It reminds me of one of those Japanese terraced gardens built on a mountain.  

Worse yet, the greens are perhaps the flattest, dullest (yet fastest) I've seen in that part of PA.  I had commented here after playing Glenmaura that I didn't have a putt all day that broke more than a foot or so and you know I'm not the kind of guy who knocks down a lot of flagsticks.  

So, you end up at Glenmaura with the strange incongruity of a mountain site (at the base of a ski operation) and nearly dead flat fairways and greens molded by H&F.  If the site wasn't bad enough, it also has more than its share of wetlands.  Nice views of the valley, though.  

I'm surprised no one here mentioned H&F's Sand Barrens, which was a pretty novel idea (digging "down" to utilize the native sand as bunkers and waste areas throughout the course) that comes off pretty well.  

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, that was a very well written write up by a fellow with a keen eye.  Just one question.  With the ravines as described, would the course be a pleasant walk?  Or, don't they allow walking?  At $50, it sounds like an appealing course to see if one is in the area.  

[Jonathan Cummings]

RJ - Wren Dale is very walkable.  There are foot bridges across most creek valley crossings.  The ground rolls gently and the tees and following greens are close together - all things not generally common with H/F designs.

JC

[Mike_Cirba]

RJ;

That's a very insightful question and I did want to write about that aspect.

Hurdzan/Fry did a good job in trying to create a walkable course by locating tees as close as possible to previous greens in most cases.  And you know that I generally like to walk when I can, but yesterday decided to ride because it seemed to be a mandatory practice with the club...they had my clubs on the cart right out of the car.  

The trouble with walking, as you seem to intuitively understand, is that the many ravine crossings force the walker to follow the winding, circuitous cart paths and bridges that navigate them and after riding the course I'm fairly glad I did.  

So, the course is certainly walkable for someone in good shape but it could be rigorous in spots and certainly not the "walk in the park" that one might envision, despite the closely connected holes.

I don't think that needed to be the case, but as I mentioned earlier, the routing does try to maximize those ravine crossings, probably to a fault.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jonathan;

Our posts crossed in cyberspace!  I think we're both saying the same thing.  

[Matt_Ward]

I've played a vey good sampling of H&F courses over the years -- roughly 25 -- and given the news about Wren Dale I have to wonder if much of the excitement / bewilderment of H&F design boils down to the fact that one half of the partnership -- Dana Fry -- used to work for Tom Fazio and you can see the style of "above and beyond" with plenty o the tandem's work. Sometimes it works well and other times goes over the top.

I played both Devil's Pulpit and Paintbrush and clearly the styles are far apart -- Paintbrush is the better designed course IMHO. The course doesn't feature a confusing array of options like the Pupit and the Paintbrush actually works with the land instead of being a fun carnival ride like Pulpit.

I don't doubt that "adding" elements of design can be most helpful to flat sites such as Calusa Pines (FL), Sand Barrens (NJ) and Desert Willow / Firecliff (CA), to name just three. But, when you get solid sites like Hamilton Farm in Gladstone, NJ and Fieldstone (Wilmington, DE area) and you add a bunch of "bells and whistles" to land areas with beautiful rolling terrain it smacks of overkill that actually works against what Mother Nature provided. On the flip side the tandem did a wonderful job at Eaglesticks in Zanesville, OH given how small and comact the site is.

I played a few months back a design carried out by only one half of the partnerhsip -- Dr. Mike H -- the couse name is Bully Pulpit in Medora, ND. There the design works with the site and doesn't go into hyperdrive with a desire to overwhelm the landscape. I liked the layout -- especially the final five holes that play through a section of the Badlands.

I have not played Wren Dale thus far but I respect the comments from Jonathan and Mike C. What would be curious to find out is if the tandem is conscious of there past work and is now attemtping to include a different motif in order to more fully broaden their design skills and widen their commercial appeal.

I would just hope that people here on GCA and elsewhere viw that as a positive because too many times a good number of architects stay within their "comfort zone" because it fosters what has been successful commercially in the past and at the same time stays within their own creative abilities that many are not wont to push the enevlope and do someting a bit more daring and "out of the box."

[redanman]

Finally..... my lazy ass posted some pictures..... Hopefully you'll all get a better idea from the great posts we've already had on this neat, fun course.

First Nine

1 from fw 250 or so out after semi blind tee shot.  Odd because the first shot is THE most blind on a very visible course. Photo not posted because it shows nothing.


1 green


road hole style bunker from wide fairway (with strategy) on hole # 3  Just a little too long to try and drive


4 green (looks like Biarritz, but is a shelf)


5 approach (2nd of two ravines crossed on the hole)
   

8 green viewed from right


9 from 250 out, "going for it in two"


scale of place from hill between 8 and 9



Second Nine


10 approach


11 from tee


11 from behind green


12 tee


12 approach (two ravines again)


par 3 13


14 approach


15 greensite from end of higher part of fairway


16 tee (first ravine on hole, deepest and widest on course)


16 approach (over the second ravine again)


17 approach (two ravines again)


very very short pins with the author for comparison They called them "Irish" but I think they're even shorter than that.  A little shorter and the course would be a real ball-buster.


There are indeed a lot of ravine-hopping shots raising the slope numbers to answer the question Mike Cirba asked about slope. I don't mean to imply that the ravines are necessarily bad, but the duff might lose a few top-shots.



Here's the pond

The second is essentially drivable with this approach from 100 left side


The tee shot on #3 also has the pond somewhat in play



18 was extremely difficult to photograph, 6 was too and the light was horrible on #7

[Mike_Cirba]

Bill;

Really good pics...thanks for sharing.

I think they give others here a real sense of the type of low-key challenge employed at Wren Dale, and the clear distinction from a very highly sculpted style that I've seen many times from Hurdzan/Fry.  

Interestingly, is there another architect(s) who has gotten more jobs in the PA/NJ/DE region in recent years, particularly private clubs?

[TEPaul]

"Interestingly, is there another architect(s) who has gotten more jobs in the PA/NJ/DE region in recent years, particularly private clubs?"

MikeC:

I don't think so and a few of the reasons just may be that Hurzdan and Fry are apparently willing and able to work on basically a burn-out, breakneck schedule on the one hand while on the other hand they really do tend to make clients feel comfortable with all they're willing to provide! They'll measure and paint the lines in the parking lot if you want them to!   They're totally full-service designers and architects! It'd be interesting to know if they ever actually turn down a project.

Did you know Philly Cricket tried to get Coore and Crenshaw to do Militia Hill? I nearly died laughing when writer Michael Bamberger imitated Ben's really polite brush-off when Michael got turned down in his request to get them to do Militia Hill. The irony was, at that time, Coore and Crenshaw were really dying to do a course in the Philadelphia area but their known limited schedule just wouldn't allow them to do the work for Philly Cricket.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

I had no idea that C&C were given first dibs at Militia Hill.  I must admit that given the traditional nature of the club, I was surprised with the final decision.  I really need to get over there next year and see for myself how it came out...I've heard mixed things.

Was there any way for any architect to use Tillie's original 36 hole plans, or had too much changed over the years?

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