GREENS DESIGNED FOR THE WIND.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Most of us love the wind and its effect on play.

Can anyone think of greens that were specificallly designed to accomodate or integrate approach shots with windy conditions ?

When I look at the 17th and 18th greens at Seminole, they have to be two of the most difficult greens to play to, especially in light of the prevailing winds.  Hence it would appear that the two architects intended to heighten the respective finishing hole's level of difficulty by not making allowances or margins for the wind.

Looking at Pebble Beach, Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, Friars Head and Shinnecock, it doesn't appear that any concessions were made.  Although, an argument could be made that concessions were integrated into the greens at NGLA.

I'd be curious to hear from architects who frequent this site what their thoughts are regarding the design of greens buffeted by strong winds.

[TEPaul]

"Looking at Pebble Beach, Bandon Dunes and Pacific Dunes, Friars Head and Shinnecock, it doesn't appear that any concessions were made."

What concessions did you have in mind, a run-in approach everywhere?

[Paul_Turner]

You don't see many small, perched greens on links.

[Bob_Huntley]

The Old Course. No matter what force gale is blowing, they are large enough to give some encouragement to the battered golfer.

[cary lichtenstein]

Years ago, I remember the prevailing winds on Maui were always down the mountain towards the sea. I bet some accomodation was made there, cuz I know the length of the holes were shorter uphill, and way longer downhill.

[Matt Kardash]

I think Pete Dye said he made sure all the greens at Kiawah were deep so even downwind you could hold the greens. Does that count?

[peter_p]

Au contraire, the 17th at Bandon Dunes is designed extra long because of the prevailing winter wind and the chasm fronting the green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter,

From what direction do the winter winds blow ?

What's the busy season at Bandon Dunes ?

[CHC1948]

Pat,

I know you mentioned Seminole's 17th and 18th, but I think the sixth and seventh are great example as well.  It swirls a little more in the back piece of the property, but you really have to trust your feelings and hit it at your target...probably a little more at the sixth than the seventh.

CHC

[Patrick_Mucci]

CHC 1948,

I mentioned # 17 & # 18 because of their location on the property and in the course of the round, but # 6 also presents a difficult target, into the same prevailing wind, from an awkward lie.  # 7 green is rather small when you consider the length of the hole and the prevailing wind.  Not much, if any, of a concession on those two either.

I would imagine that the size of # 8 green is a concession to the length of the hole rather then the wind.  # 10 green with a left side hole location is no bargain and may be one of the most underrated greens in terms of difficulty of the approach, on the golf course, even with the helping wind.

To me, # 17 and # 18 greens have always appeared to be at least one half of their actual size when trying to approach them with varying wind directions.

# 7 at Pebble doesn't seem to offer any concessions either.  

[john_stiles]

With some modern courses designed near the coasts in the US,  I haven't heard of many courses where concessions have been made at the green or green surrounds throughout the course.   Someone mentioned Kiawah greens as being extra deep.  

The par 3 near the round's end at Kiawah doesn't offer any real bailout area if I remember, like a Cypress #16, when the wind is howling.

You think of the 17th at TPC Sawgrass and the 17th at Secession and many other penal holes with forced carries (across wetlands & marshes near greens).

Secession may qualify (except for pesky 17th) as it does have bail out areas galore through the rest of the course.  Secession has generally flat, big greens with broad chipping areas near most greens. You can also bounce the ball into the green except for the  17th.  Except for this glaring exception,  Secession's greens and green surrounds seem to be designed for the coastal winds in South Carolina.

The modern 'coastal' penal hole design does seem quite popular.  

When speaking of individual holes,   I can think of only the Calamity par 3 at Royal Portrush as the only hole in Scotland/Ireland where a forced carry with little 'apparent' bailout area exists.  

The 16th at Turnberry does become a little rough in a big wind with the fronting creek, closely mown steep creek bank and high grass (if I remember right) beyond the green.