News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« on: November 16, 2004, 10:40:33 AM »
   
 
From today's San Diego Union Tribune:

 
 Public to hear Torrey proposal
       

North Course plan a scaled-back version

By Tod Leonard
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER

November 16, 2004

On a day late this past summer, San Diego City Councilman and Torrey Pines men's club member Michael Zucchet joined other city officials in a tour of the Torrey Pines North Course. The group joined an associate of architect Rees Jones who was giving a hole-by-hole description of the planned reconstruction of the municipal course.

By the ninth hole, Zucchet was aghast. He was ready to mutiny.

In no uncertain terms, he let it be known that the proposed changes were far more radical than he expected, and far too similar to the massive overhaul and toughening of the South Course. On the spot, he said he would vehemently and publicly oppose such a plan.

Torrey Pines timeline
Projects and key dates between now and the U.S. Open at Torrey Pines in 2008:

 Tomorrow: Presentation of renovation plan for Torrey Pines North Course to San Diego's Natural Resources and Culture Committee.

 Later this month: If approved by Natural Resources Committee, the renovation plan would be put before the City Council for a vote.

 January: Buick Invitational at Torrey Pines (20-23)

 February: Beginning of renovation work on North Course, if approved by City Council.

 July: Renovation of North completed. Junior World tournament held. Renovated course opened for public play.

 Spring, 2006: Proposed ground breaking for new clubhouse.

 Winter, 2007: New clubhouse completed.

 June, 2008: U.S. Open on Torrey Pines South.
 
 
"My opinion was that they ruined the South Course, but at least I understood why they did it – to get the U.S. Open," Zucchet said yesterday. "I love a tough golf course, but I miss the old, historic South.

"Now, it's a Rees Jones masterpiece, but the old one was a San Diego masterpiece. We've lost that, and I want to do my best to make sure the same things don't happen again."

One of his first steps comes tomorrow, when Zucchet and fellow Natural Resources and Culture Committee members Jim Madaffer, Donna Frye and Ralph Inzunza meet at 9 a.m. at City Hall in the first detailed, general-public meeting regarding the North Course's renovation.

The plan they will hear is a "very, very, very scaled back" version, according to Zucchet, of the one he was first presented that summer day. The $2.5 million to $3 million project, to be paid for from the city's golf enterprise fund, calls for a rebuilding of all of the North's tees, bunkers and greens, but with an emphasis on making the course playable and enjoyable for most skill levels.

If the committee votes to push the plan forward, the City Council could hear the proposal by the end of November. Once approved, work on the North would begin a few days after the Buick Invitational in mid-January and continue until the Callaway Junior World Championships in July. It has not been decided whether play will be allowed on the course during the construction.

As of yesterday, Zucchet was leaning toward sending the process forward, but he was still torn by his concerns about what will actually happen once the bulldozers arrive.

"I still question why you're tearing up that beautiful course," he said.

Not being a greenskeeper himself, Zucchet is listening to the pleas of golf course managers who say the work is necessary to improve the long-term health of the nearly 50-year-old greens. Mark Marney, the city's project manager at Torrey Pines, said the greens and bunkers suffer from poor drainage, and he has been told by agronomists that the greens will continue to deteriorate over time.

Both Marney and Deputy City Manager Bruce Herring said they shared similar concerns about a more extensive renovation, and once a less ambitious plan was in place, the city attempted to allay fears by doing presentations for the men's and women's clubs at Torrey Pines and the Golf Advisory Council. After seeing the details, all three organizations endorsed the work.

"It was a victory that they went to daily players to ask what they thought about some things," Zucchet said. "That's never happened before."

Said Torrey Pines men's club President Art Stromberg: "There's a certain amount of faith involved with this. What else can you say? I have to take them at their word. There's nothing to make me think they're blowing smoke."

Unlike the privately funded, $3.4 million renovation of the South, where several greens were significantly repositioned, plans call for most of the North greens to hold their current locations. The only big change would come at the 18th green, which would be moved north to accommodate a new clubhouse.

The two ponds on the par-3 17th will become one, and only three new greenside bunkers are proposed – at Nos. 3, 8 and 15. The depth of the bunkers is also said to be moderate, compared to some of the cavernous traps on the South.

"For guys in the 70s – and I mean age, not score – it would be nice to see the green surface while standing in a bunker," Stromberg said. "The pitch of the greens goes toward the traps on the South, too. It's like, 'Good grief.' "

A renowned architect, Jones likens himself to an artist with an open canvas, and it will be Marney's job to make sure the work doesn't become too abstract.

"We've heard from the average golfer, and a lot of folks have decided they like playing the North more than the South because the South's so tough," Marney said. "They don't want to see the North significantly changed. We're trying to balance that and address the maintenance issue."

Zucchet vows to closely watch the work.

"I'm not going to micro-manage it," he said. "But I want to make sure it stays in the context of simply rebuilding the greens and bunkers, because it has the potential to stray away from that."

Included in the proposal also is several pieces of work on the South Course. All of the sprinkler heads would be replaced, as well as a fairway bunker added to the left of the No. 6 fairway, because in the U.S. Open the hole will be converted from a par-5 to par-4. Marney said a future project will entail grading the 18th hole's fairway, because it will also play as a par-4 in the Open.

The North Course renovation isn't the only big project in the pipeline at Torrey Pines. The Natural Resources Committee will hear about preliminary plans to tear down the current clubhouse and build a new one closer to the parking lot in 2006. However, the project has not reached the stage required for approvals.

After months of on-site research, Marney will make a proposal for a clubhouse that would occupy an area now used for the North Course putting green and 18th green. The Century Club also is discussing funding a separate two-story structure that would accommodate its offices and a locker room.

In other Torrey Pines business tomorrow, Zucchet said he will also propose before the committee that it undertake a public accounting of tee-time access at the golf courses.



 
 
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2004, 11:17:42 AM »
It would be nice if they finished the renovation of the South first ;)
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2004, 11:30:29 AM »
Mike, Truer words couldn't be spoken.

A buddy of mine played in a tournament there last week, and was totally disappointed in what they did to the South. This is a guy I have played both Torrey Pines courses with at least four or five times and is like Huckaby--he loves everything.

My views are some of its better, but a lot of its was uneccessary, and much like the Mr. Zucchet, It puzzles me why they would change anything on the North--a somewhat decent golf course that doesn't need Reestoration and will have nothing to do with the US Open.

What they aren't talking about is the driving range which I'm somewhat sure is the real reason behind the moving of the 18th green.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 11:31:52 AM by Tommy_Naccarato »

tlavin

Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2004, 11:37:19 AM »
I played Torrey Pines South a couple years ago and I have to say that I have never seen such an overrated golf course.  It is dull, dull, dull.  They've made it tough by brutal length, fairway tightening and bunker placement, but that doesn't make it pretty or interesting.  The most notable thing about the course is how it totally wastes its oceanside location.  June 2008 would be a good time for a European vacation, since the U.S. Open will be avoidable.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2004, 11:47:14 AM »
I played the South pre-Rees and if it wasn't "great", at least it wasn't a course that was ugly and distracting from the incredible setting.  It also had a set of unusually fun greens for a muni, including the wonderful second green.

Based only on television and pictures, the course now looks...ummm...forced....sort of in the way Elton John does with his 70s hair style toupee and cosmetic dentistry.  The bunkering in particular looks abysmal, most glaring is the "Elton's Teeth" bunkering on the 13th.

What a crummy, but predictable US Open site.

« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 01:31:20 PM by Mike_Cirba »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2004, 12:12:52 PM »
I've now seen three William F. Bell routings and they are all awful. I'm including the two at Torrey Pines and Idaho Falls Country Club.

Torrey-South is a complete waste of a stunning setting, and the Rees Jones renovation/modernization - it is no restoration - actually compounds the separation of the golf holes from the natural beauty of the site. Hole-by-hole, the newer delineation of shot values has actually been improved, though the quality of the greens turf has been problematic and the forced nature of the shots is transparent. But the real waste of all that work is that the holes are now further alienated from the coastal setting.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 12:14:59 PM by Brad Klein »

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2004, 12:33:05 PM »
Was the site all that great to begin with?  That is, was it possible to use the cliffs or features to good effect, or did they have to have the holes in from the edges for safety?  And is the ground any good?
That was one hellacious beaver.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2004, 01:29:27 PM »
I guess that I don't get it.  I liked the pre-Rees Torrey Pines-South, and the post one a bit more.  All municipalities should be so lucky as to have such a facility.  World-class it is not, but a place I would like to play again a few more times, and a worthy venue for the US Open, in my humble opinion.

Jeff Goldman could very well have it right- despite its proximity to the ocean, perhaps the site is not all that good.

Having said all this, I sure don't know where the $3MM+ went on the South renovation (new greens, back tees, irrigation and drainage).  Not a big bang for the buck.


Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2004, 01:39:43 PM »
Having said all this, I sure don't know where the $3MM+ went on the South renovation (new greens, back tees, irrigation and drainage).  Not a big bang for the buck.

Temporary housing for the crews, it isn't Texas.  Environmental and planning didn't help either...i'm guessing.
Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2004, 07:23:01 PM »
"Not being a greenskeeper himself, Zucchet is listening to the pleas of golf course managers who say the work is necessary to improve the long-term health of the nearly 50-year-old greens. Mark Marney, the city's project manager at Torrey Pines, said the greens and bunkers suffer from poor drainage, and he has been told by agronomists that the greens will continue to deteriorate over time."


This is the part of the article that bothers me: The greens suffer from poor drainage? How could 18 push up greens built out of sand have a drainage problem? Originally they said that the subsurface of the greens was exhausted of nutrients, that was total hogwash, but it did lead to the rebuild of the South, now they changed their tune to drainage. It's quite transparent that the City will be able to charge tourists more when the Reestoration occurs. I'll be the first to admit that William Francis had less talent that his father William Park did in his baby finger, but of all the William Francis Bell courses I've played, Torrey North has an interesting routing that does involve some of the canyons and a wonderful set of pushup greens. It will be a real shame to loose these contours and I've seen nothing in Rees portfollio to indicate that he can come with something as interesting as what is already there. It's ironic that the greens on the South were flattened because the new strains of bent "would cause the balls to roll right off the green". Nothing could be further from the truth, the new bent still has not taken and the management has decided to allow the poa anna to take over again. So why do we need to rip up these greens? Doesn't $3.0 MM sound a little high for 18 tees, greens and bunkers?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2004, 12:14:12 AM »
"Does $3 Million sound high for redo of tees, bunkers and green?"

Not if the City is doing it.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

Thomas_Brown

Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2004, 02:13:08 AM »
Can I get someone to agree on #6 on the North being a wonderful par 3(from the white tees, not the awful back one installed in the 1990).  It's one of the best severe downhill par 3's I've played - view, challenge, green site, ...
I imagine that green being ruined by some 3 tier contortion.

#3 is another short simple par 3 which is perfect.
Its slope on the green was almost too severe in spots and provided good variety.  Watch how many greens within greens that turns into.

Regardless, I think only the Donald could rescue the last 5 holes on the North.

Pete - I'll drop you a line in Feb - I hope to attend the Buick on Thurs. or Fri.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2004, 04:44:25 AM »
Pete, After giving a tour of Industry Hills this last weekend, my tourees were suprized at the quality of green contours they found there. The same goes for the way Torrey used to be, as well as many other BB Jr. courses. It was certainly a positive point for a architect that clearly was 2nd tier and didn't hold a candle to his more definitive Father.

Many of us have always felt that both Bell's weren't of a higher calling--especially the old man--that is until uncovering a lot of old photos and aerials showing us different. He maybe more on the under-appreciated side.

Could Torry have been better?

Of course it could have, especially if he would have had Wee Willie directing him, but it was clearly after the war, after Tillinghast that even his style was affected and changed. All to keep pace with the times. I think it was because things got so bad during the Great Depression and during the 2nd war that Billy Bell Sr. actually went back to maintaining golf courses and actually even running one of his 36-hole designs--Sunset Fields.

When Billy Jr. graduated from USC, he probably more or less invigorated the old man to continue, as did a totally thriving economy after the war.

Stupid things started to happen though. Ojai for example.

While the course was left for dead and served as a landing field for P-51 Mustangs and trainers during the war, when they came back, they made changes--stupid changes.

Many will claim the old 3rd was the result of the main water-line feeding Ojai as the culprit. Its funny though, it wasn't a culprit when Carter Mooron rebuilt those holes!  They (the Bell's) added, took away, redesigned several others--all stupid moves, and who knows, maybe it was at the behquest of the owner?  (Count me as one who thinks this was the architects job to inform them just how stupid it really was!)

The result was a semi-loss of a great classic.  Don't get me wrong though, I love the place--Ojai is very dear for me--but the place is still being ruined even today.

But back to Torrey.

I think a lot of what made the courses at Torrey somewhat looked upon as mediocre is the way they have been maintained over the years--100,000+ rounds a year does a lot to a golf course. (more rounds = more decay) Does it have to be a GREAT design or better routing? I don't think so. I think it would be better served the same way it is now--as a thoughtful and wonderful tour of a beautiful California coastline while playing some G.

Personally this is what knowledge of both the North and the South can do for those who know the characters of the courses--I have said it once if not a thousand times in this DG, that TP-North is a better, more fun and more enjoyable golf course. Is tougher? Of course not--and it severely lacks the glamor of its sister course. EVERYONE wants to play the course they see on TV.

But then there are those who have played both courses during the bright eyes of a SoCal sunset and know which is the better, more enjoyable golf.  I can only hope Rees associate who is the one thats doing this work gets it right, and hopefully its the guy that did Old Kinderhook and not the guy that did Sandpines! I couldn't bare the knowledge of having to see two completely wasted oceanside opportunities!

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2004, 01:20:17 PM »
Tommy,

I have heard the story about you and Sandpiper.

Could it be possible that all your preoccupation/appreciation for what is natural take away from enjoying golf in a general sense?  Alternatively, can extensive knowledge of GCA with a strong focus on what is "right and wrong" actually diminish from the simple pleasures of being in the outdoors, perhaps with some wonderful sights of the ocean, and just batting the ball around on what's there?

I was very happy playing TP-S just before the KPI.  It was a very refreshing, enriching experience.  And two of my golfing partners were staying there for a big fund raiser for then-governor Davis!  Maybe you guys in the land of the beautiful just need a bit more perspective.  It takes a lot in my book to "ruin" a site.  

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2004, 02:51:08 PM »
Lou,
Please do tell me the story of Me and Sandpiper. I would enjoy hearing it. (I have no story of Sandpiper other then its a so-so routing with three or four really good golf holes) So, please pray-tell us the story about me and Sandpiper.

As far as Torrey-South, Lou I have played that course dozens of times on a regular basis before the redo. I think what Rees did on #14 was a vast improvement to a very so-so golf hole on a golf course filled with them.  I have always maintained that Torrey Pines is a lovely experience in the early evening, which would make it more in line with your description of it. But is it a GREAT golf course? Is it a US Open caliber venue? Not even Rees himself probably believes this, and if he did, he would be kidding himself.

TP is nothing more then a lovel walk in the park, and a place where you can enjoy swinging a club while walking. Its hype is because of one annual golf tournament on a course that isn't even the best course on the property. Folks like you in the freezing mid-west that time of year see the sun and the beautiful women and they ooze with envy of wanting that type of climate. Its the same climate you Ohio State people experience every year you have come out here for the Rose Bowl and went back with your assess kicked and your tail set in between your legs.

Maybe its because I have lived less then 20 miles from the beach my whole life and for a Mid-Western Red state guy like yourself, its just ground breaking stuff. But I do know this for sure Lou, and trust me when I say this--I  enjoy playing golf at Torrey Pines--I even know the secrets on how to get on there in a pretty quick fashion without having to pay some company a extensive green fee. It requites patience, and much of it comes from experience of playing there. I haven't gone out of my way to play TP anymore because when I am in San Diego, I spend most of my golf playing the best modern course in San Diego County--Barona Creek. In fact I'm supposed to play there this weekend.

In truth, one of the main reasons why I haven't played Torrey Pines in the last three or four years is specifically because I can't walk it in my current shape, and just like Riviera, I refuse to play the course unless I can walk it. I did however tour the course in a cart the day the first tee shot was played on the REESDESIGN.

I thought there was some good stuff, and some stuff that was just loathesome and repeticious, especialy when I noticed some of those great green contours gone like dust in the wind and in cointrast to what Rees said before hand how he was going to honor the genius of Billy Bell Jr. A laughable comment at best.

But this wouldn't be the first time a Bell course was errovocably harmed.

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2004, 03:02:01 PM »
Having won the Afternoon grouping of the Buick Invitational Pro-Am on the South Course and playing the North Course the following Monday, I found the differences between the two courses to be subtle, except for conditioning/bunker quality.  Granted, I was getting to see the courses prepared for a PGA TOUR event, but the rough on the North Course was thicker than the South.  I played the North from the Tips, and that was about as equal as the set up for the Pro-Am.

Overall, why would anyone want to invest $ in a reconstruction 3 years before the North Course is turned into a Parking Lot/Executive Baby Sitting & Bathroom Area?

What a tremendous waste of money from a city/county that's going broke due to generous pensions!  They should have gotten the U.S.G.A. to pay for the reconstruct after the $150,000 a week tents are removed in late June of 2008!

JWK

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2004, 03:28:40 PM »
A little known fact that is driving this effort is that in the contract for the 2008 Open, the last 2 rounds of the Buick will be contested on the North, thus limiting participants to only one practice round at the South.

But to steer the disscusion back to its' intended path: Why should we rip up perfectly good and well contoured greens, with lots of front to back slope that provide putts which actually break, in order to soak tourists for more money on greens which will surely be less interesting?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2004, 03:29:34 PM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2004, 03:39:00 PM »
It couldn't be EGO could it Pete?

JK, I think you have hit that one right on the spot. The former governor aka Pete Wilson, a crook if there ever was one, was responsible for those pensions when he was mayor of San Diego.




Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:Torrey North ready for Reestoration
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2004, 09:53:34 AM »
Tommy -

Thanks!

The County of San Diego should wait until after 2008, rather than having to recondition/reconstruct twice (If at all).

JWK

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back