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Jim_H

Short Par 4's
« on: January 29, 2003, 07:49:59 AM »
The discussion on the 17th at TPC-Scottsdale--and the general consensus that it is a very good hole, at least at that time and place--got me to thinking about other good, short par 4's.  I've always thought that anyone can make a tough par 4 just by making it very long.  But it takes genius to make a short par 4 challenging and fun.
I would nominate the 3 short par 4's in the middle of Merion as the best I've seen--is it 8, 9 and 11?  or 9, 10 and 12?  Whatever, they are great.  Fair but challenging--even to the best players.
What other short par 4's come to mind?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mitch Hantman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2003, 08:03:00 AM »
This one is controversial, but I love the 13th at Loblolly Pines in Hobe
Sound, Fl.  I've seen every score there from a 2 to a 7.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_H

Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2003, 08:09:54 AM »
As a follow-up--what are the characteristics of a good, short par4?  I would toss out--options and risk-reward.  The holes at Merion reward a well-placed tee shot--as opposed to distance alone--because the approach to the greens changes based on where the approach shot comes from.  The trees overhanging the greens are part of the play--but they seem fair and not too intrusive.  The bunkering of all of them is well-done.  Also I think that the greens need some unique, interesting features--without being tricked-up.
Other holes that seem to fit all these characteristics would be #7 at Augusta (at least before it was lengthened) and #8 at Pine Valley.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2003, 08:15:16 AM »

Jim,

Royal Melbourne West #10 and Kingston Heath 2 and 3.

Some of the best holes in Australia.

Also - a while back, none of us could reach consensus on the fav at CPC.  So many great short par fours there....

MM
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

SPDB!

Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2003, 08:18:38 AM »
Jim, i agree that short par 4s need either some element of "right/wrong side of the fairway" or "demanding greens," or, more often, both.

Many of the Merion holes you cite have these elements (with the exception of 9 - a par 3).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim_H

Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2003, 08:26:42 AM »
MM--You're right.  It's hard to beat 8 and 9 at Cypress as among the best in this category.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2003, 11:21:32 AM »
I started a thread on this about a year ago.  No idea how to find it, but some holes mentioned were PV #8, Riviera #10, CPC #'s 8&9, NGLA #1 and a bunch of others.

PV #8 gets my vote as best although Jay Sigel said CPC #8 was the hardest hole all week during the '81 Walker Cup.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2003, 11:24:00 AM »
One of my favourites is the 6th at Kingsbarns.  A totally manufactured golf hole but looks totally natural.

A superb strategic hole.

Brian
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Andy

Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2003, 11:29:06 AM »
The best one I have ever seen is Royal Melbourne's short four which goes up the hill and to the left with the big bunker at the corner.  I forget which number it is because I get fouled up due to the composite numeration.  In the states, I would vote for 8/9 at Cypress, 10 at Riviera, 6 at Troon North Pinnacle(which is a really cool hole)...Europe, maybe 14 at Kings Course at Gleneagles...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

SPNC_Chris

Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2003, 01:03:15 PM »
First time poster here. I’ve lurked here a lot, but this is the first time I’ve felt I could add something to a thread. I hope the following post isn’t too long.

One of my favorite par 4’s is on the under-maintained Cardinal 9 at Southern Pines GC in NC. I grew up playing on this course and after being gone from the area for about 12 years (I’m 30 now), I’ve moved back and can again enjoy this fun little Ross course whenever I want.

The hole is #6 and is the number 1 handicap hole on the course. From the back tees, the card says its 404. From the whites it’s 375. While the card yardages may make it sound like it’s not super short, it plays much shorter- it seems like maybe 300 to me. In fact it’s best played with a couple of mid-iron shots.

The layout is a sharp right dogleg with a decent elevation drop (maybe 30-40 feet) starting at the corner. The fairway has about 3-4 terraces leading down to a water hazard in front of a shallow, but very wide green. There is a bunker behind the right half of the green. Anything more than about 10-15 feet from the front, rear, or left of the green is either in the water(front) or in the weeds (rear and left).

Off the tee, you have a few choices and it’s important to choose wisely. The ideal shot, IMHO, is to hit the ball straight down the middle of the fairway and to stop it pretty much in the middle, keeping the ball on the upper level. Distance control is important, however, because a ball hit too far will go through the fairway or at least to a downhill lie. Hit too short or towards the right, even if past the inside of the corner, you get a good straight-line view at the green, but there’s a huge tree (oak I believe) that hangs over that side of the fairway about halfway between the corner and the green. It’s almost impossible to hit the ball over the tree yet far enough to reach the green, especially with the downhill lie you will likely get.

Those who feel the need to pull out a wood and shoot over the corner can cut the distance of the second shot, but they risk having to deal with that tree as well as some nasty downhill lies for their shot over the water.

If you stay up top and in the middle with your first shot, you get a great lie and a good look at the green. The only problem now is what club to use. The green is pretty shallow and anything long or short is unplayable. The elevation change obviously makes it play much shorter. You can either go for it or hit at the generous bail out area to the right of the green.

If you’re greedy and cut the corner, you might luck out and land on one of the terraces, but there’s more downhill than flat for your ball to stop on. Of course, if the fairway grass is pretty much dead due to the drought like it was last year, your ball will roll more and is more likely to stop on the flat part, but living grass will usually stop your ball in a bad place.

This hole is really great because if you play it “right” and can pick the right clubs, it’s a fairly fun and easy hole. If you misjudge, mishit or get greedy, you may have to end up laying up your second shot. A big hitter has almost no advantage on this hole. Overall, the whole course, if given a little more TLC and green restoration, would not give up much at all to it’s well-regarded 18-hole sister course at the same facility.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JMD

Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2003, 08:51:47 PM »
I like 6 at Troon North Pinnacle as well; and the short par 4 Weiskopf designed at Vistoso is special.  On older Massachusetts courses how about 4 at Brookline, which doglegs left over a hill to a very small and interesting green; the short par 4 at Salem (I'm forgetting the number -- it may well be 13) uphill to an awfully difficult surface; and 15 at Brae Burn which produces many 3s, a rare 2, and more 6s than anyone should admit comfortably (a front bunker a strangely aligned tee and a fairway that appears narrow, thanks to the tee all conspire to induce this result).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JS

Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2003, 09:59:57 PM »
With the way the ball seems to be traveling on tour this year...we will have to rename this thread...

Long par 3's!

As for short par 4's, the best collection of great short par 4's would have to be found off of Ardmore Ave at Merion GC.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2003, 12:43:28 PM »
Mitch,

Interesting call on 13th at Loblolly. Never had a 2 but have had a run at it there. Do you usually go after it and from what tee?

I usually am hitting from the Blues using 3W when going for the green.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2003, 03:49:55 PM »
#13 at Kingsley Club. I could play approach shots into that green all day with a shag bag. Depending on the pin position, there are so many different possibilities.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

CW (Guest)

Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2003, 04:17:30 PM »
Here's a short par 4 that you'll see later this summer when the US Amateur comes to Oakmont-- #17. Coming at a pivotal point in the round, it will be interesting to see how it affects strategy for the matches that go beyond #16.

Oakmont's #17 is a real risk/reward drivable hole (you might remember Els driving it into the bleachers at the Open and where the drop area was). "Big Mouth" bunker awaits those who lay up and then try to finesse a sand wedge.

Recent changes to the hole have resulted in a more crowned putting surface, deeper "Big Mouth" bunker in front, and little big mouths behind the green. I can't decide if these changes have altered the risk/reward equation however they definitely have made either option that much tougher. Should be interesting to watch come August...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2003, 12:08:35 AM »
#15 at Wild Horse, discussed here recently, is simply as near perfect a short par 4 as I've found. Driveable, but miss anywhere but left and you're virtually dead due to the narrowness of the green and menacing bunkers front and rear, especially with the firm and fast maintenance meld going on there.

All The Best,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Short Par 4's
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2003, 07:49:30 AM »
CW (et al):

I love deeper bunkers (i.e. those made deeper than before) - especially on short holes and ESPECIALLY on Golden Age (or before) short holes where the original shot values were a function of less bunker-specific equipment than today.

But that's a whole 'nother thread.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »