[Mark_Rowlinson]

A recent thread on Gleneagles prompted me to wonder what would be Scotland's best inland course.  Gleneagles? Loch Lomond?  Blairgowrie? One of the Edinburgh courses?  And where would these stand in comparison with its best links courses?


For that matter, Ireland, too, has some lovely inland courses.  Which are the best?  Where do they stand in comparison with Ireland's finest links courses?  

[Jack_Marr]

Ok, hopefully one day I'll play some more Scottish courses. I wouldn't be mad about Loch Lomand from the TV, but that's not a fair judgement.

For Ireland, I think the best inland courses are Headfort New Course, Esker Hills and Druids Glenn. The new Carton House Montgommery course is also very good. Haen't played the O'Meara one, but will be soon.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Jack,

It's interesting that you mention a number of new courses in Ireland.  Do any of the old ones measure up?  Killarney, Cork, Tramore, Carlow, for the sake of argument.

[Jack_Marr]

Mark

I kind of got the impression, don't know where, that we were talking about newer courses. Anyway, you've mentioned a selection of the best. Carlow is a lovely course, with a new nine that I've yet to play. Nearby, Kilkenny is also very good. I play Tramore every year in the open week and love the place.

I have only looked at the Killarney courses, and they look beautiful, but I haven't heard really great reviews.

I think I've mentioned a few of these older courses before, but the Grange is very high quality, in my opinoin. Hertimage GC is similar, as is the Castle. Mullingar is very good also, but has a few holes that aren't great. I am also very fond of Skerries, although it is pretty straightforward. Hard to pick a winner.

Other notable mentions:

Beachpark - about 7 or 8 superb holes
Headfort Old
Roscrea
Thurlas

[David_Tepper]

Jack Marr,

Have you played Little Island in Cork? It is an Alister Mackenzie course I have heard good things about, but rarely seems to get mentioned (at least by Americans going to Ireland for a golf vacation). I have not played it.

I played Carlow and both Killarney courses in 1984. Back then, Carlow was nice, but nothing more. Killarney suffers because the original 18 holes were split in half when 18 more holes were built. The two courses there each have 9 of the original holes and 9 of the newer holes. My guess is that, if they had kept the original 18 holes together as one course, it would be  very, very good.

DT

[Mark_Rowlinson]

David,

That opinion of Killarney seems to be a widely held view.  Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a way of re-routing the courses so that the original course can be played in its entirety.  Maybe that's a job for Tom Doak!

Mark.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Loch Lomand is a great, great parkland course.  It was voted the best course in Europe a few years back.  I'm not sure about that, but I think it is easily in the top 100 in the world.  There is a bias against the idea of Scottish parkland courses being greater than great links courses.  Greatness should be lauded anywhere it exists--I sure did not find a weak hole at Loch Lomand.  I think the course palys better than it even appears on TV--it is one of the most beautiful courses That I have ever seen and it is a flat out very strategic and difficult course.  The only negative is how it is almost always wet--this is being addressed through extensive drainage building and sanding to raise the fairways and rough.

[Jack_Marr]

Jack Marr,

Have you played Little Island in Cork? It is an Alister Mackenzie course I have heard good things about, but rarely seems to get mentioned (at least by Americans going to Ireland for a golf vacation). I have not played it.

I played Carlow and both Killarney courses in 1984. Back then, Carlow was nice, but nothing more. Killarney suffers because the original 18 holes were split in half when 18 more holes were built. The two courses there each have 9 of the original holes and 9 of the newer holes. My guess is that, if they had kept the original 18 holes together as one course, it would be  very, very good.

DT

David

Yes, Little Island is very good. The quarry holes are particularly good. I can't say I know the place too well though.

Carlow wouldn't have changed much since you played it, I'd imagine. I am very fond fo the place. I don't know how good it is technically.

[David_Tepper]

Mark R. -

I recall that the Irish Open was played at Killarney a few times 8-12 years ago. I am pretty sure they recreated the 'original' 18-hole routing for that tournament. The problem is that the original 18 holes sit in the center of the property and the two 'new' nines were built on each side of the original 18.  If the original 18 was restored for everyday use and the two new nines were presented as one 18-hole course, the holes on the 'new' course would start & finish in different areas that are quite far from the clubhouse.  There might also be a gap in the routing of a mile or two at some point in the round.

Mind you, I played those courses 20 years ago, so I am a little hazy on those details.

DT

[David_Tepper]

Robert D. -

I have read that not only is Lock Lomond built on land where the water table is barely below the surface of the course, it also sits in one of the wettest micro-climates in central Scotland. I cannot recall any year the Euro PGA tournament there did not allow bumping the ball due to the wet conditions.

I doubt you will ever see that course play 'firm & fast,' no matter what they do with the drainage or how much sand they spread out.

DT

[David_Tepper]

Mark R. -

After reviewing the entries for Killarney in the 1st and 5th editions of "The World Atlas of Golf," it appears my prior post about the Irish Open and the layout/routing of the two new nines, relative to the original 18, is probably way off base.
Please disregard!

DT

[Mark_Rowlinson]

David,

I haven't been to Killarney since the 60s!  I do have their centenary book and one or two other documents.  I'll have a look to see if I can work out how much of the original remains.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I agree that Loch Lomand will rarely be able to play really "firm and fast", but it has such wonderful slopes and green movement that the better player has to be precise with iron to score.  Incidentally, when I played there it was raining steadily and had accumilated a couple of inches and the greens were surprisingly firm.  The member said that its green complexes had the best drainage of the several clubs he belonged.  I was plugging drives and stopping wedges after 2 bounces with little drawback.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Robert,

Your post raises a number of issues.  What I'm about to say isn't a criticism of the course - I'm sure it's a fabulous course and in good weather must be magnificent.  You are lucky to have played it.  But practicality is surely a major issue in golf design.  I know this year has been a particularly wet one throughout the UK but the best of the big-money courses have remained very playable.  The water table at Loch Lomond has always been only just below the surface of the golf course.  It is a wet part of the country.  Surely this was known before the course was designed and constructed.  They know how to build courses in the swamps of Florida and South-East Asia.  Why on earth did they not apply similar tactics at Loch Lomond.  It's too late to raise every inch of every fairway by six feet - what happens at the edges?  It's probably not worth raising them by less.  And what would it cost?  The project has been bankrupt in the past.  Surely it will be again if the current boom ends, and many indicators suggest that the bubble is about to burst.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Mark, I can't think of a lovlier course than Loch Lomond.  It just may be the most beautiful inland course I have played.  And it is very, very good.  
Ireland has some very good inland courses but of the twenty or so I have played none compare with Loch Lomond or Gleneagles.  The best inland courses in GB & I are in England.  It wins hands down.

[Paul_Turner]

Mark

I'm convinced, from good reviews, that Belvoir Park is the best of the old inland courses in Ireland.  Perhaps better than all the new ones too.

[Marty Bonnar]

I was about to throw in a vote for Ladybank, but having mulled it over, I'm beginning to think that maybe it's not as good as I think it is. For so many years I had heard of it in hushed reverential tones as 'An Open qualifying venue', 'beautiful', 'natural', etc, etc, blah, blah, blah...

And now, even after repeated playings I still love the place. It is a good test of golf, has some lovely greens, fantastic woodlands, great swathes of wiry Heather...

BUT is it as good as, say, Swinley Forest? Or even Blairgowrie?

Yours conflictedly,
FBD.

[Philip Gawith]

well, i just returned from my debut visit to gleneagles and i was mighty impressed by the kings course. the routing and topography are exceptional - lots of gradient and slope which add to the appeal; exceptional surrounding scenery, and wide, expansive fairways which encourage you to use the driver. i will reserve judgement on the queen's course since i played the second nine in a mixture of twilight and darkness! i have played and enjoyed ladybank, but i think it is quite a long way back of gleneagles and loch lomond. i agree with everything robert says about loch lomond - a really exceptional course, but very sodden. one of the main differences with gleneagles is that at loch lomond the fairways are mostly fairly flat, whereas at the kings course many/most of the fairways have large rolling slopes in them which are a feature of the course.

i think the king's course compares very favourably with, say, sunningdale or woodhall spa, but i would agree with tommy that england offers a lot more choice when it comes to top quality inland golf.

i will try and post some pictures on gleneagles when i get my act together. incidentally, whoever it was who suggested it would be very long after all the rain - brian? - was absolutely right. even though they had set the course up very short - with men quite often playing close to the ladies markers - there were many occasions when you were still faced with a 200 yard second to the par fours.

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