US Top 100s under 6500 yds?

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

Probably zero after 1940.

But I di suspect that the US older (pre 1940) courses have been stretched more than the GBI courses.

[Paul_Turner]

Why no 9 holers on the US lists (I think)?  Again a prejudice?  RWN is on the Golf World list.

[THuckaby2]

Tom

Probably zero after 1940.

But I di suspect that the US older (pre 1940) courses have been stretched more than the GBI courses.

That's also likely true.  But that also could be because they have more room to do so, no?  Perhaps a desire to do that has existed in the UK, but at least some courses don't have any room to be stretched?

Oh well, it remains an interesting question.  I just think there are many different ways to answer it.

And btw, thanks for the generosity of spirit re 6509 yards.  Maybe Rich will be less grumpy now.

 

[THuckaby2]

Why no 9 holers on the US lists (I think)?  Again a prejudice?  RWN is on the Golf World list.

Wow, can't see that as a prejudice nearly as much as just a fact of life, that we don't have many truly great 9 hole courses.  But isn't the one in Michigain or whatever (something Dunes, jeez forgive my short-term memory loss) sometimes included on different lists?  That would make it 1 to 1....

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Stretching a classic course is like trying to make a family room out of your garage...

And to think I was about to give up on you.

Mike
A Casual Golfer

[Paul_Turner]

Tom

How about Whittinsville?   There must be a few more.

I don't think elasticity is a strong factor.  The great architects in GBI all built with this in mind (and wrote about it too).  Which is why the famous championship courses could and have been stretched.

The lesser known GBI courses however, do not appear to have been stretched like their US counterparts.   Unless of course the US courses were always longer.

What I'm really looking for in this thread is for some hidden but short US gems that are possibly being overlooked.

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

There are a number of NY / NJ metro courses that could be considered.

Frankly, having such a category itemized on a frequent basis would be a good assignment for any of the major golf pubs to do.

Pat mentioned Montclair GC in West Orange, NJ and clearly the contributions of Donald Ross and Charles Banks are there for all to see. With the 250 foot elevation change from the top of the hill to the back of the property you have a number of really interesting and holes.

I also believe Morris County GC in Convent Station (Seth Raynor) is also quite good although clearly a notch behind Montclair. The long par-4 7th (named Big Ben) is very well done.

Atlantic City CC in Northfield is also another good choice. If memory serves -- I believe it's also under 6,500 yards and was recently restored / upgraded by Tom Doak.

I wish I could also mention Forsgate -- for a long time the course was barely over 6,500 yards but I believe with some extensions it's closer to 6,700 yards.

Clearly, one would have to include Somerset Hills in Bernardsville.

On the New York side I believe among recent designs one could possibly include C&C's Easthampton club. The updated efforrs by architect Stephen Kay at Seawane has also been well received and I believe it's right at the 6,500 cutoff.

I'm sure I can include a few others from The Empire State.

[THuckaby2]

Good points, all of them, Paul.

I just do think that it's not so much that short courses here are overlooked as that we just have far less of them, compared to the UK.

That being said, there must be some.  And it is possible that there is a bias against shorter courses, given the whole thing about "championship" courses over here and all that such means.

I'd also be interested to hear about more of them.

TH

[Ken Fry]

No mention of Crystal Downs yet??  At 6518 from the back tees, it fits the criteria for one of the world's best.

[Brian_Gracely]

Pretty sure "the ripper" tees at Tobacco Road are around 6500yds.  

[ForkaB]

Just bought the Golf World with the GBI Top 100, and the following courses are under 6500 yards (in order of rank, from #33 to #96):

Berkshire (Red)
West Sussex
Swinley Forest
Western Gailes
Royal West Norfolk
St. Enodoc
North Berwick
Gleneagles (Queens)
Wentworth (East)
Machrihanish
St. Georges Hill
Berkshire (Blue)
Rye
Royal Worthington (X2)
Gullane #1
Saunton (West)
Aldeburgh
The Machrie
Ferndown (Old)
Worplesdon
Aberdovey
Cruden Bay
Royal Ashdown Forest
Luffness
West Hill
Woking

Now, but my count, that's 27 pretty darned good golf courses.  Anybody on this site want to argue that whatever's #88 on whatever US list is "better" than Cruden Bay?

[Paul_Turner]

Cheers Rich,  pleased my guess was about right.  Broadstone might be another one.

[ForkaB]

Yup

I missed Braodstone (#86)

[mark chalfant]

Paul, Worcester CC, an interesting  Ross course (1914)was
on Golfweeks list at one time.This well preserved gem measures just 6,422.

[Ken Fry]

Worcester CC, site of the inaugural Ryder Cup match in 1927.

Tom Paul,

For nine holers, you're thinking of The Dunes Club in New Buffalo, MI.  Nugent design owned by Mike Keiser.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Fishers Island?  Creek?  Sleepy Hollow (Rees Jones bunkering ruined the aesthetics of 16 not to mention the the dramatic Tillie bunkers)?  There may be a bias against short courses, but I would think that people can generally understand the greatness of the course even though many of the hazards are no longer in play.  Fishers Island and Creek play like pitch and putts, but they are fun to play and one can see that they are not ordinary layouts.  Sleepy Hollow may play like a par 68 these days, but there are great holes.  

[corey miller]

It is the second tier "very good" courses where the 6500 yards becomes a problem.  Since they are not "recognized as great" the members think the path to greatness is with length and longer more difficult shots.  What does it matter to me I play all courses 6500 yards (from the member tees).

In regards to Sleepy Hollow.  The course is actually shorter than the 6500 yards on the scorecard.  Ken Dye as part of his work remeasured the yardage and determined the scorecard exagerated distances in some instances.  He is rectifying the situation by lenghtening wherever possible for the better player.  He is also going to restore the look and feel of the course with a bunker program, and get some pin postions back in play(lost by increased green speeds) by leveling some small areas on greens.

[mark chalfant]

Paul, Metacomet by Ross and Troy by Travis are both superb
routings under 6,450. the greens at CC of Troy are brillliant
and fun to play.

[T_MacWood]

Eastward Ho! is the longest 6200 yd course I've ever encoutered--the wind and rugged terrain are to blame.

Dev Emmet has his share of <6500 yd courses--Huntington and St.Georges are a couple that standout.

One of the best in Ohio is Congress Lake (W.Park/D.Ross).

Of all these, I'd only put EH! is the top 100, why its not there currently says something about the entire process.

[Brad Tufts]

Myopia's back tees are 6539, so pretty close to 6500.  

I also played Merion yesterday, and even some of the "Member's back tees" (which I played) are using the new teeing grounds.  I bet it made 6482 about 6600 for me.  I did a double take when I reached 17 and the card said 220, and the caddy said as I was walking back "it's 258 from the back of that tee."  I was also told that the USGA and Merion were arguing about the possibility about a way, way, way back tee on 18 that would make the carry over the quarry about 285.  The hole from there would be about 505 with a par of 4.

[Gerry B]

shoreacres put in new tees stretching out the course to well over 6500 yards

atl city is also just over 6500 yards - play there all the time

merion prior to the lengthening was 6482 - however the much underrated west course qualifies but is not ranked

there are a bunch of ranked  / great ones  in the 6500 - 6600 yard range - ie chicago golf club, cypress, fishers island, forsgate, creek club to name a few.

is Maidstone under 6,500 yards?

[jim_lewis]

From the back tees:

Creek 6402
Fishers Island 6566
Maidstone 6423

Yeamans Hall is now over 6600