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TEPaul

Taste and the American modern age of architecture?
« on: October 26, 2004, 07:50:16 AM »
Since we now have the opportunity and ability to look back  on what many refer to as the American Modern Age of Golf Architecture and analyze it carefully, was there any real taste in that general golf architectural style and type and time?

Personally, I don't think so, or very little of it. It may not be all the different from those flat roofed modern houses that were popular during the time of the real strength of the modern age of golf architecture. Much of that building style of architecture of that time is so dated now it's a tear down in many cases. Is the same true of the modern golf architecture of that time? I don't think it has aged well at all, it probably never will---it's dated and probably suffers in appeal because of it. Maybe it always will be vaguely unappealing in the broad sweep of architectural evolution but we probably can't know that yet!

It may even be the reason this undeniable renaissance to the old pre-WW1 and WW2 style of golf architecture is now upon us both in restoration and some new construction.

I can't remember if it was P.T. Barnum or Arnold Toynbee who said: "Nobody ever went broke UNDER-estimating the taste of the American public."

There's probably a lot of truth in that but I doubt it's that simple---I doubt you can be that general. America is a unique and complex society and culture and all the things it does, invents, creates and produces are complex too in a cultural sense and in the sense of taste or lack of it. As a country and culture we fire forward remarkably quickly into all kinds of new and innovative areas. Change is our middle name---it's glorified and a central part of our ethos. Certainly a by-product of all that is excess---there're really few general socities better at excess than America is!  ;)

But we always seem to slow down at some point and in some way and stop and look back to some former time and in many ways recycle some part of it. America just may be the best in the history of the world in many things---but it doesn't look like taste was ever one of our strongest suits.

Why is that? Will it ever change? Can it?

But what about the glorious "Golden Age" of Golf Architecture in America and so much of what went with it? Wasn't that a time of true taste? I think so but why did it end, why did we lose that?

I think a new style and type is about now upon us in golf architecture and maybe some other interesting areas. I think the age of "anti-excess" is about to creep in and become popular in some areas of our complex society--and I think some part of golf and its architecture will be one of them--and noteably so. It may even establish it's own distinct architectural "era" in the broad sweep of things. It may last 10-25 years and then we'll probably be off again in a great hurry and on to something else new and different.

Real "taste"!? What is it exactly and where does it come from?

Matt_Ward

Re:Taste and the American modern age of architecture?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2004, 01:07:31 PM »
TEPaul:

It is most convenient and intellectually lacking to make the case that all courses from years gone by were / are superb and that all from the modern age is simply "excessive" and can easily be dismissed.

I don't see it from the many courses I play.

I don't doubt for a NY minute plenty of new design is simply formulaic pre-processed junk and may become the nex parking lot for the needed strip mall in a few years. However, I can name plenty of modern designs that are extremely well done and would give any number of "classic" designs a good run for their money in terms of their ability to grab your interest round after round after round.

Tom -- you need to see what exists beyond the block you live. There's a number of well crafted and well designed modern layouts by architects that are not the class favorites among the inner sanctum of posters here.

The big world of architecture is there -- if you have the eyes to see it and the time / desire to play it.

T_MacWood

Re:Taste and the American modern age of architecture?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2004, 01:29:43 PM »
Architectural taste, like wine taste or artistic taste or culinary taste, is set by a very small number of connoisseurs. Individuals who've made a detailed/critical study of their art and who have the ability to effectively communicate their thoughts and ideas.

There is no doubt the architects of the (so called) golden age nearly all considered the average golfer when designing a golf course, but that is where it ended. IMO their main audience, the group they were actually trying to impress, was their fellow connoisseurs. This mentality in combination with their writing skills (and outlets to express themselves) affected tastes.

I don't believe modern golf architects and golf writers are, for the most part, discerning connoisseurs. Many have a Macdonald's/Merlot/Thomas Kincaide mind set.  For that reason there is a void in taste making, but I'm confident it is changing for the better, slowly but surely.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2004, 02:37:22 PM by Tom MacWood »

Dan Herrmann

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Re:Taste and the American modern age of architecture?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2004, 02:34:48 PM »
Tom MacWood:
I find your Thomas Kincaid reference to be right on the money.  I'll bet that more velvet Elvis paintings have been sold and Monet, for example.

This difference in tats is the reason some of us think AGNC is the holy grail of golf, with its rhodies in bloom and wall-to-wall green, and others prefer St Andrews or Merion.

Golf is a grand mansion with many rooms...  (Some just happen to have shag carpeting with gaudy metallic wallpaper)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2004, 02:36:55 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Tom_Doak

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Re:Taste and the American modern age of architecture?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2004, 03:30:48 PM »
Tom P:

What's missing from that period is craftsmanship and detail.  When they really started relying on engineering plans and heavy equipment to build golf courses, craftsmanship went out the window for a while.

Look at architecture in the same period ... where was the craftsmanship in the 1950's there?

TEPaul

Re:Taste and the American modern age of architecture?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2004, 03:56:58 PM »
Matt Ward:

I'm speaking of "era" in a general sense. It's just like you to think I'm implying ever single course built in the Modern age has no taste and every single course built in the Golden age was filled with taste.

TomD:

Good point about mechanization and the lack of hand detailing in much of the modern age architecture. Craftmanship and hand detailing is certainly back in a portion of new construction now and it very definitely shows.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2004, 03:57:46 PM by TEPaul »

Jlyon

Re:Taste and the American modern age of architecture?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2004, 11:53:45 PM »
Tom P., Your argument connected with me.  I am sure that I will not capture all of the truly profound driving forces of the post WWII era of golf architecture, but here are a few that I have seen mentioned over and over on this site:
-Defending Par from the new equipment onslaught
-Television golf
-Home site/golf site co-development
-Baby Boom golf expansion of the 1960-1990’s
-Modern construction equipment
-Environmental regulations
-Celebrity golf designers or Branding
-Golf as a profit center (versus the earlier era of country clubs w/o profit motive)
-USA as the center of the golf universe

Compare these post modern trends and societal changes along side the visible changes in architectural trends and you will see that there some wonderful courses but mostly, we see “big box” construction to a “set formula” designed to make quick money.  There is nothing wrong with making money, but once money comes too easy, then watch out; run for the hills.  Many times it takes an eccentric owner in conjunction with an architect that is willing to buck conventional wisdom to build a great modern course or possibly a disaster (Trump is a possible example of the later).  

Are we seeing a new golden age emerge?  I hope so and I suspect that it will be driven by the need to create a viable economic model for the golf industry…… because the old formula appears to be broken.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Taste and the American modern age of architecture?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2004, 12:56:58 AM »
Interesting timing...I just golfed the backnine at Pacific Grove (Neville 1960), today, and was dern thrilled to be there. It was so... so perfect in almost everyway. But then I was exposed to the new bunkers on the 16th. Apparently someone had done donuts on the green and parts of the fairway, awhile back, so the entire complex was rebuilt. The incident happened on a Saturday night, with a men's club toon-a-mint the next day. The crew did one heck of a job getting the place playable. BUT now, the wonderful scars that were the nastiest bunkers are as munified as they get. Showing that taste cannot be bought, only acquired, or not.

p.s.  On the way back to the Hotel, Sheryl and I marveled at the little changes made over the last 3 years and one month, in the town of Monterey. When we past what used to be Consuelo's(sp?) Mexican restraunt, which was housed in an old Victorian, the restraunt had been replaced by the... by the... (wait for it)... by the...

Thomas Kincaid National Archives. :'(

« Last Edit: October 27, 2004, 01:02:30 AM by Adam Clayman »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Taste and the American modern age of architecture?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2004, 10:12:09 AM »
TEPaul,

Love the philosophical topic, along with Player vs. Architect elsewhere here.

To specifically answer your question, I don't know what taste is, but there always seem to be a few dictating it to the massses, who generally aren't buying!  So, who has better taste - the few who buy symphonic recordings, or the millions who bought Elvis and the Beatles, among others?

America's taste is seemingly always for something new. Not all of it works.  In other cases, like Art Deco, its a fad, its trashed a decade later, and its rehashed about 3 decades later.

Many of our inspirations - including the new post modern design you seemingly favor - come from retro and nostalgic ideas - look at the 2005 Mustang, or Fords attempt to udate the original Thunderturd.  In golf design, the predominant trends starting in the 80's was a new style, focused on using cost efficient earthmoving to create a wow factor.  Then, there were the retro phases of psuedo Scottish and psuedo Golden Age, each slightly adapted to our times.

I don't know what will happen next, but I doubt, seriously, that it will be a long term trend, whatever it is.  I don't think that the new minimalism will be declared the "right answer" for all time, because of the american desire for changing styles.

I believe that both the 20's and 90's focused on current ideas of taste to a higher degree than other eras, simply because the economy allowed us the chance to build slightly above functional levels in all design fields.  In most other eras, that doesn't happen.

Contrary to you (I think) I think that more classics will be recognized from this era than any other than the golden age.  And, part of the reasons they will become "classics" is that accelerated golf technology will force major events to these new courses, so they can start building their own tradition points, as it were.

Its a complex topic......I'll post again if I figure out what my point is..... ;)

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

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Re:Taste and the American modern age of architecture?
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2004, 10:49:15 AM »
Quote
Compare these post modern trends and societal changes along side the visible changes in architectural trends and you will see that there some wonderful courses but mostly, we see “big box” construction to a “set formula” designed to make quick money.  There is nothing wrong with making money, but once money comes too easy, then watch out; run for the hills.  Many times it takes an eccentric owner in conjunction with an architect that is willing to buck conventional wisdom to build a great modern course or possibly a disaster (Trump is a possible example of the later).
Quote
What's missing from that period is craftsmanship and detail.  When they really started relying on engineering plans and heavy equipment to build golf courses, craftsmanship went out the window for a while.

I think the two above points connect into an explanation with historical perspective.  What cultural/societal/economic trends caused there to be a lack of taste, meaning a discounting of appreciation for craftsmanship and style.  Where did we develop a primary need to just be functional and efficient above other aesthetic considerations?  I think that it was the depression and WWII.  

New earthmoving technology and rapid build construction materials and methods for engineering solutions allowed the "big box" efficient build out with a set formula, and incentivized the profit motive in new quick buck developers or public use planners.  Craftsmanship was secondary.  We see it in the era's public buildings as well.  The build out of state college and universities followed the same pattern.  Functional tasteless buildings built for economy and bare bones functionality at the least cost to taxpayers.  Most campus build-outs from the 40s-on resemble prison buildings.  In WWII, the emphasis was on fast build, planned obsolescence.  It just had to be efficient and fast to construct, work long enough to get the job done, then disposable.  

RB Harris helped start this trend in basic functionality based on formulaic methods with modern efficient construction, easy to maintain, rapid build out golf courses.  The users all thought this was great because they had come through the depression and war with the successful practical mentality of get it done, do it fast, use it for what it is worth, then throw it away.  They thought the pre-fab house was the same thing.  A rapid build, minimumly functional abode that had no concept of taste with a limitted use horizon.  

They built great edifaces of public works, royal residences, churches, and even homes with craftsmanship to last a long time, up until this last technology driven disposable society century.  The Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Chinese and all great cultures built their best stuff with the long term in mind and didn't have the same focus on profitability.  We lost that long term mentality, trading it for efficiency, big box build out, and profitability as the primary driving forces, relegating taste and craftsmanship to a secondary concept.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Taste and the American modern age of architecture?
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2004, 11:09:58 AM »
RJ,

RBHarris was affected deeply by having owned courses in the depression.  

We have to remember also that Ross extolled the virtues of construction with bulldozer near the end of his career (Its in Golf Has Never Failed Me) so I don't think that improving construction efficiency necessarily meant an automatic "formulaic" or "loss of craftsmenship" to these designers.  I think they saw possibilities to do more, perhaps giving up some things - but I doubt hand building bunkers was one of them.....

All designers were affected by the economy at various points.

But, it is strange to think that in the 1950's, when America controlled something like 80% of the economic output of the world, that some money wasn't available to add "garnish" to designs in all fields.  Perhaps the public debt from WW II was just too high, and the depression/war mentality, or the need to accommodate returning soldiers with tract housing and malls, etc. didn't make them think in terms of expressive design.

Of course, thats in general.  There are probably some great designs in all fields from that era......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach