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Brian_Gracely

What is "the ground game"?
« on: October 20, 2004, 05:15:55 PM »
Pat Mucci made a comment about "the ground game" in another thread that had me questioning what I thought it was.  What is your definition of "the ground game"?

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2004, 05:25:14 PM »
I'll bite...

A excuse for grown men to run/scull their "Yonie" (Yonex) 5-7 woods onto the green from 175 yards without having to clear any obstacles!!!

Let the shelling (Or Shellacking) begin!!!  ;>

JWK

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2004, 10:50:28 PM »
My caddie at Glen Eagles in 1984 handing me a wedge and pointing 30-degrees left of the green, about 230-yards away. Saying, "Hit o' there lad and yewell ball al' rewll doon to ther hoole on the hard groond."
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2004, 11:00:09 PM »
Forrest,

I can remember being directed to play at the 11th tee to reach the 10th at Prestwick.  Even the latest pix from St. Andrews depict a lusher course, probably too lush to absolutely dictate the ground game there.

In America, its about as relevant and extinct as the Dodo bird.  To save typing, here is what I wrote last year in my Cybergolf series about the ground game. I don't think my feelings have changed, although certain parts could be better written and are in need of a mulligan:

Chip Schott, asks, ‘Do you design greens to allow the running approach?’
By: Jeffrey D. Brauer
My courses usually feature many ground-level greens partially unguarded in front, since many seniors and other golfers rely on low, running shots to reach the green. While these greens allow the ground game, I don't expect better players to use it regularly. I did see Tiger Woods make a running approach on TV, but that was to the restroom after a case of food poisoning.  
 
So, naturally I wonder why every Tour pro talks about "ground game options." They must have similar feelings to mine concerning power tools: I have no real plans to ever use them, but somehow it's nice to have them around, just in case!  
 
Running shots require reasonably dry, consistent turf (modern maintenance makes running shots more practical than ever, but heavy watering discourages them) and slopes – whether sidehill, uphill, or downhill – that assure predictable bounces. Otherwise, golfers prefer aerial shots. Modern equipment allows higher shots with backspin. Aerial shots are safer, just as airlines are safer than Amtrak. Once airborne, there's not much to run into, while trains occasionally face potential collisions that could knock them off track. Except in strong winds, or where runways/fairways are slippery, and staying on the ground makes sense for both golf shots and airplanes, running approach shots are more likely to deflect off line in any direction after striking a deflecting slope.  
 
So, I suppose I will design for the ground game the day I see equipment advertisements touting balls that "fly lower" and with "less spin."  
 
When I do design for players to use ground-hugging shots, it's usually in windy climates, where such shots generally make sense. In these climates, downwind holes reduce backspin, often requiring run-up shots. In other areas, we specifically design for the run-up shot on holes where we can predict long, running shots, like reachable par-5 holes (under 575 yards), drivable par-4 holes (290 to 350 yards in length) and ultra-long par-3 holes.  
 
Occasionally, it's fun to tempt a player into a running shot on short par-4 holes, with a large green set low to the ground. I usually create one area with a consistent run-up slope, while other areas feature subtle folds and banks to deflect the ball away from the green. Such holes can lull a golfer to sleep, and allow great strategy and preferred approach angles without using traditional sand hazards.  
 
My crystal ball shows increasing future water restrictions for golf, which may restore the need, and not the option, for the ground game, since the greens will be hard enough to reject the aerial approach. That would certainly buck the trend of efficiency that equipment, green design and maintenance have created for the aerial game, but it would also bring back the rub of the green, and perhaps, a bit of the fun the game once had. That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2004, 11:28:51 PM »
Last year I played three rounds at Cuscowilla about this time of year, and realized why I enjoy the course so much - lots of ground game opportunities.  The maintenance staff keeps the course fast and firm.  Tom Paul would be proud of the blend.

I loved the shots you can play immediately, on the 4th hole of the first round.  I was perhaps 40 yards short left of the hole after a snipe hooked tee ball and a fairway wood in the right direction.  The pin was set behind a mound in the center of the green.  The caddy was fumbling with my sand wedge when I grabbed the putter and putted the ball firmly and far left of the mound.  The ball caught a slope as anticipated and rolled left to right behind the mound, stopping within ten feet.  Fun stuff!  The sand wedge would have been either short into the mound or too long, perhaps catching the backslope and going far past the cup.  The ground was so firm and cut so short that the putt was an easy choice.  The ground game is alive at Cuscowilla.

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2004, 01:41:38 AM »
 The ground was so firm and cut so short that the putt was an easy choice.  The ground game is alive at Cuscowilla.

Bill,

Great point, this is a very important component of the ground game in my view. Not only must the ground be firm enough for the ball to run, but the lie must be tight enough to give the golfer cause to think about the quality of ball club contact. Chipping of tight lies makes the golfer choose something other than the standard ariel shot. The greenside collars at Rustic Canyon are one of the few places in the USA that make the golfer confront these choices.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

A_Clay_Man

Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2004, 10:56:22 AM »
In america, the ground game is likely defined as a bounce. Any bounce.

But seriously, the opposite of the gg is hitting ones shot, and knowing it will be within a foot of where it strikes the big ball. Lazy thinking, unawareness producing, soaking wet flat turf. YUCK!

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2004, 11:41:36 AM »
Imagination and execution.
"chief sherpa"

ForkaB

Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2004, 11:53:12 AM »
As I think "we" understand it, the "ground game" can only really be effectively played on shots under 100 yards (maybe even 70-80).  Over that distance, even the best players cannot simultaneously manage spin control, distance control and the visualisation of the nature of the intervening terrain.

And, of course, the course MUST be firm and fast.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2004, 02:06:19 PM »
Pete nailed it. Imagination for me is the biggest part. Once I visualize the shot, most of my work is done. I think most golfers just don't have an awareness to even look at slopes and ground game options in general, except maybe in reading putts.
    I have seen golfers trying to pitch shots that even pros wouldn't try, when the ground option was so much easier, and it just never occured to them. I remember one incident where the guy tried the same shot 3 times and didn't get within 30 feet when he only started 20 yards away to begin with, because he tried to lob it in. I hit one low runner in to 3 feet from the same spot, and could have hit 100 balls in and they all would have been closer than the other guy ever got. He had a lower handicap than me by half, but he had a limited short game imagination.
   In defense of guys like that, it is very difficult to find a place to practice the ground game here in America.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2004, 02:08:17 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

THuckaby2

Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2004, 02:14:09 PM »
Ah but Ed, you only commented on half of it... oh yes, imagination is important in using the ground game, but it is meaningless without execution.  

I'm betting Tiger could get closer to the hole than me on ANY shot, even if I forced him to lob every one.  And I have a pretty good imagination for these things.   ;)

TH

Brent Hutto

Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2004, 02:18:51 PM »
Even a my level of execution, it's funny how pitching a ball through the air 40-something yards and getting it to land five feet from the hole is kind of ho-hum. I mean, it's a nice shot and makes me happy but it just means I found the right feel for the distance and made clean contact.

If I can see and execute a way to chip the ball and play it along the ground for 30 yards and then roll the final 400 feet on the green, stopping five feet from the hole that's a thrill. It's because one shot takes imagination and execution in equal measure while the other is all execution (assuming I can at least successfully visualize a ball flying all the way to the hole, which can get hard after you've chunked a couple in a row).
« Last Edit: October 21, 2004, 02:19:18 PM by Brent Hutto »

blasbe1

Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2004, 02:40:32 PM »
An extreme example:

early last Spring I was playing in my weekend game and we came to a long par four that was playing dead down wind.  We (like most LI clubs last year) were dealing with ice damage so we were playing to a lot of temporary greens, including this one.  I was 130 out, with the temp green I figured it was about 100 yards, but I wasn't comfortable with the wedge shot so I pulled out the putter.  

I figured if I played the undulation correctly and hit it as hard as possible I wouldn't be far off.  I nearly holed it from 100 yards and left myself a tap in par.  The three guys I was playing with were literally stunned.  Although I often use the putter from off the green, that is by far the longest putt I've had.  

When playing the ground is an option, the short (and sometimes not so short) game is twice as exciting.    

Brent Hutto

Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2004, 02:55:44 PM »
I was 130 out, with the temp green I figured it was about 100 yards, but I wasn't comfortable with the wedge shot so I pulled out the putter.

I figured if I played the undulation correctly and hit it as hard as possible I wouldn't be far off.  I nearly holed it from 100 yards and left myself a tap in par.  The three guys I was playing with were literally stunned.
That is part of the fun. Usually once a round or so I'll hit a little pitch or chip shot really close to the hole and someone will say "nice shot". But I sometimes roll the ball with a hybrid club from 20-30 yards off the green and if I get that one close everybody thinks it's the shot of the day. I never mention that it was simply from a tight lie and I was afraid I'd chunk it with a wedge...

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2004, 03:57:48 PM »
I played Royal North Devon this August in a 30-40 mile an hour wind.  The greens were firm and wildly undulating.  The fairways were rumpled, firm and sparse of grass.  Every shot to the green held a number of options.  Getting a ball to go the exact yardage in the air and be reasonably close to the pin was difficult at best.  Reading the spead and undulations to run up a shot was only marginalyy easier.  I usually took the later route because I required touch, imagination, luck, and was much more fun.  
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2004, 06:55:32 PM »
tommy and Brent touched on the other aspect of the ground game that appeals so much to me. Its fun! Brent also brings up another point that applies to me, which is I am going to my strong suit when I play the ground game, I suck at the lob shot.
   Another aspect of the ground game is that you can pull it off from greater than 100 yds. I experienced this last month at Kingsley Club, when I made a 2 on #3, a par 4. I was 195 out and the pin was on the far right, protected by two bunkers. Now Tiger and the big boys can loft an iron in there from that distance, but I can't. However, I know the hole well, and knew the slope of the ground would help my ball towards the hole if I could skirt by the left edge of the left bunker, then up on the green is a diagonal ridge that runs from left to right which would move my ball even more towards the hole. As Rich states its too far to actually control the shot precisely, which I didn't, since I pulled the 3 iron, what I thought was too much. But the point is that I knew what the ground possibilities were, and purposely tried to use them. The hole out was pure luck, I was just trying to use the ground to get me closer, and just happened to have everything work out just right.
   So to recap, its imagination, execution, and fun. :)
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2004, 12:56:24 AM »
Rich,

I don't buy your 100 yard limitation.  I certainly would consider it ground game to play a 200 yard with a half punch 3i that flies 10-15 feet off the ground and lands 60 yards short and runs up on the green.

I made one of my best ground shots ever into a 50 mph wind at Tralee on the front nine -- can't remember which hole it was, but it was playing about 430 yards.  I pounded a drive about 230 (there's a phrase you don't hear often) and hit the above mentioned shot.  The hole was left of a little hill in front of the green and for some reason I decided I wanted the hit towards the left side of that hill and roll the ball off it.  Don't know why, it wasn't something I thought about it, just "seemed right".  Came out just in reality just like it was in my mind's eye and ended up 10 feet away.

Had the same experience on the last day at Lahinch.  On the 18th I hacked it around a bit and was sitting about 20 yards short of the green in 3, and while the path to the hole (slightly left of dead center) was clear, I'd have to get the speed just right because the hole just on top of a small plateau.  There was a slope that would feed it left over on the right side.  For some reason I felt like it was better to play it off that slope, since I wouldn't need to get the speed exactly right like I would with a straight chip (or the carry exactly right with a pitch)  So chipped a little 4i off that slope and it ended up 4' away for a nice par to finish up the trip.

Shots like that that come out just how you see them and somehow more satisfying than imagining a high pitch that lands next to the hole and sticks.  Maybe its because you can only watch the high shot in the air for a few seconds knowing its just right while you can watch the little grounders longer.  Kind of like the difference between a quick fuck and a long slow fuck.  They are both satisfying, but I know which I'd rather have if I have a choice :)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

TEPaul

Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2004, 04:12:27 AM »
Being a 60 year old American I've not seen many courses over here where the ground game was particularly functional. The reason was obviously the approaches and such never really were hard and firm enough and most all the greens I played my golf on were receptive enough to fly the ball into.

I've mentioned it on here a number of times but about 5-6 years ago I spent about a week in the Irish town of Mallow and I played the little Mallow course every morning at day break alone for the entire week. Ireland, that summer was unusaully hot and extremely dry and it'd be an understatement to say I'd never played a course that firm and fast before.

The first day, on the first hole, a shortish par 4 on a hillside I hit a good 2 iron up the high right side of the fairway and it bounced so far left and long I was shocked. From there I took a wedge from about 120 yards and flew the ball onto the green and found it about 50 yards over the green.

To say the least, from that moment on my interest in that golf course was really pricked. I really can't remember having more fun playing a course in my life. For the rest of the week I tried all kinds of different clubs and shots. Of course I was hitting the ball in the air but I had to figure out how short and where to land it on every hole for both bounce and run and cant and caroom which was really massive in some cases.

To me, that was the real ground game. It was the only way on that course, it was so firm and fast. If I was to slap an "Ideal maintenance meld" on Mallow G.C. I would've had the greens themselves more receptive to aerial shots as an option but I never would've taken away the extreme firmness and speed of that course "through the green". That alternative was a much fun as I've ever had. Just figuring out what to do and how took real imagination. You had to pay so much more attention to the golf course and the nuances of it's architecture because the ground game was basically the only way.

ForkaB

Re:What is "the ground game"?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2004, 06:53:13 AM »
Doug (and ed)

I overstated my case.  You are right that it is possible to use the ground game on longer shots (in fact my "home" course has some famous examples of this phenomenon :-[).  I think what I was trying to get at is that on the shorter shots you can really see what might happen to your ball and what actually happens.  On the longer ones you know less about why and how your ball managed to get where it did!