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Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Old Marsh (Wells, Maine)
« on: August 21, 2008, 08:21:40 PM »
Old Marsh is a spanking new course that just opened in southern Maine. I've been loosely following the progress over the last year, rubbernecking as I've blown past the site while heading north on 95. Designed by Brian Silva, much of the routing was done about 10 years ago, but financial and environmental hang-ups delayed actual earth moving until about 12 months ago. Miraculously, the holes were cut, fairways seeded and clubhouse built in less than a year. This has got to be one of the great membership plans in all of New England: $3,000 initiation fee, $1,500 annual dues. For that, you get unlimited golf, a pool, tennis courts and fitness room. No minimums or assessments. According to the owner (who also owns Sunday River, Boothbay, Freeport, and a few others), they are already at 300 members without doing any advertising. They will close the membership at 325.

Now for the golf. First, I am embarrassed to say that I pulled out my camera on the first tee only to realize that I had left the memory card at home. And this on the most spectacular day of an otherwise rainy summer. Crap. Sorry about that.

We took carts since they were included in the fee ($89), and were glad to have them when we realized that the first tee was a long way from the clubhouse. Definitely an odd start, but after the first two holes I was ready to say that this was shaping up to be one of the best courses in New England. The par 4 first is relatively straight and not very long, with large bunkers jutting in from the right. You have a choice to hit a long iron or utility and lay back at the 150, where the fairway is wide, or hit driver passed the bunkers to a very narrow throat. That leaves about a 70 yard pitch, which for me is an awkward distance, so I would typically lay back. Lots of choices and angles make this a pretty cool way to get into your round.

The next hole was even better. At about 380, this was a very, very good Alps hole. In fact, this might be my favorite hole on any Silva course I have played. I think it was about 260 to where the fairway rose up into a mini-mountain, pocked with bunkers. With more of a tailwind, I would have been tempted to try and fly it with driver, but as it was I hit a utility and had 120 in. I played with a guy who was a member, and he advised playing down the right side of the fairway to get a view of the green. I did and he was right. Anything down the middle leaves a completely blind approach. With the bunkers staring you in the face, it reminded me of the kind of visual intimidation Mike Strantz would have pulled. Even better, the green had no bunkers and had a little bit of a punch-bowl shape. Very forgiving, as it should be when most people will have a blind shot in.

After those two holes, I had a huge smile on my face and was psyched to see what was next. Unfortunately, the rest was only decent with a few exceptions. The biggest problem was that the layout is obviously routed through marsh land. While the fairways weren't terribly narrow, more often than not they were framed by only a few feet of rough and then, outside of that, was all hazard and dense forrest. Really, anyone who is a long hitter but not overly accurate stands to lose many, many balls.

Having said that, there was still some good stuff, including some very good par threes, a par 4 with a redan greensite (that was actually maintained so that you could run the ball in), a 280-yard driveable par 4, and an interesting Cape hole.

I think my favorite after the first two holes was a par 4 named Pinehurst. With a wacky, impossible green, it was obvious where it got its name. In fact, many of the greens were very interesting. It's too bad they didn't have the room to give the course a more open feel like Pinehurst.

In light of Silva's fascination with Raynor, I expected a more engineered look to the site. Instead, it was a combination of some very natural, scraggy-looking bunkers and raised-up, squared-off greens. There was one par 3 that reminded my of Yale's 5th, although without the steep drop-off in the back. The course has a nice aesthetic, although it is very flat (Silva has compared the property to what he has worked on in Florida). After having some options early on, it settles into target golf pretty quickly.

In all, I would say Old Marsh is worth a play. I think my expectations were probably higher than they should have been, which of course resulted in a letdown. It was a spectacular day with pretty consistent 20-mile-per-hour winds . . . absolutely perfect for golf. The fairways and greens were in great shape considering it just opened, and I'm sure I will end up playing there a few times a year. But it just isn't in the same league as Red Tail, Crumpin Fox, Belgrade, or Blackstone, in my opinion. Too bad you can't just play the first two holes over and over . . .

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Marsh (Wells, Maine)
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2008, 09:25:50 AM »
Was psyched after reading the first bit of your review.  Than, oh well.  At the same time I will definitely give it a try when in the neighborhood.  Perhaps a bit surprised because the pictures on their web site looked better than good.  Appreciate your comparing it with some of the best.  How would you compare it with Kettle Brook, Butter Brook, Waverly Oaks, Ledges, Acushnet River Valley to name a few.  Just trying to put in in context of NE public golf. 

BTW played Butter Brook yesterday.  As you said what a day.  Very enjoyable round as got around in 4 hours.   Also the course was better than expected.  To answer my own question would put it higher than Acushnet and comparable, but perhaps a bit short, of Kettle Brook.   Thanks again for the review.  Also a deal at $80 for two with cart courtesy of Player's Pass Discount, which is worth checking out if you're not familiar with it.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Marsh (Wells, Maine)
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2008, 12:39:32 PM »
Cliff,

Old Marsh isn't as good as Butter Brook, I think. Those holes on the back 9 at BB, when you emerge in that field-like setting, are really cool. BB also has much more varied terrain. Old Marsh is very similar to a Florida course with it's flat landscape and lots of water. However, I would put it above Cyprian Keyes, and, in my area on the North Shore, it is better than just about everything. I still haven't played Ledges, but from what I've heard it is probably comparable.

The Old Marsh website description and photos lead you to believe that this is a course with huge laying corridors. It really isn't. The hazards are so tight to the fairways that anything offline isn't just penalized, it's a lost ball. If you're playing ProV's, it could get expensive. On the other hand, I think with repeated play you would start to figure out where to miss, when to hit driver and when to lay back . . . basically how to negotiate the course. On the first play, I had a hard time picking lines off the tee. The flat terrain really makes it difficult to have any kind of accurate depth perception.

I would definitely go back. Also, if you play with a member it is only $45. Like I said, one of the great deals in New England. I think in time as the course matures t will get better, but I don't know how much more clearing they can do because most of the land that isn't fairway is wetlands. Compare that to a place like Crumpin Fox, which can be tight, but an errant tee shot goes into the trees. Typically, you can find it, chip out and try to salvage par. It gets demoralizing when a mistakes equates to a lost ball. However, it isn't nearly as tight or penal as Widow's Walk, and at only 6,500 yards, you can hit iron off the tee on most holes to play safe (there are a few 450-yard+ par 4s, but only two par 5s).

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Old Marsh (Wells, Maine)
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2008, 12:58:54 PM »
Dan:

Interesting review. I walked much of the course during early parts of construction and am looking to getting back.

I'm a bit confused about your references to Blackstone National (Rees) and Crumpin' Fox. (Roger Rulewich.) I thought Blackstone was just awful and Crumpin the second most-overrated course in New England next to Richter Park.

On the flip side, I think Butter Brook is a massively underrated layout.

Anthony


Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Marsh (Wells, Maine)
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2008, 01:11:48 PM »
Anthony...Be curious to know what you don't like about Blackstone.  It's where I play about 50% of my golf and the more I have played it the better I think it is.  The par 3's are excellent and overall an excellent mix of holes.  Par 4's of varying length, some good risk/reward, etc. 

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Marsh (Wells, Maine)
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2008, 01:22:17 PM »
Just a few comments from the NE peanut gallery....

I actually like Blackstone, despite a few wacky holes, and the target-golf nature.  I believe the owner is a member at Essex back east.  I do see how it could polarize opinion.

I have to agree on the overrated comment concerning Crumpin-Fox.  The two nines, built at two different times, are very different, and it just isn't a course that would get me to drive out from Boston to play.  In the same area, I think CC of Greenfield is a whole lot more fun.

I have played Butter Brook, and came away a fan.  I couldn't figure in my one play, however, how the greens on the front were wet and soaked, but those on the back (and #9 too) were ROCK hard.  I almost thought the yardages were mis-marked watching my approach shots bounce onto then over the greens.  I liked holes 7, 11, and 13 (the barn hole) especially, and disliked #s 2 and 18 (where all the balls collect in the same area of divots).
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 01:25:46 PM by Brad Tufts »
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Old Marsh (Wells, Maine)
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2008, 01:30:19 PM »
Cliff

I played it when it first opened and I the first thought I had was it is completely unwalkable. It seemed like most of the greens where at the bottom of a hill and every tee shot played back up a hill. Maybe my memory has failed me but it has never crossed my mind to go back there.

Anthony


Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Marsh (Wells, Maine)
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2008, 01:35:44 PM »
Anthony,

You thought Blackstone was awful? You must be playing better courses than I am. I would consider it among the 10 best public courses in New England that I have played. I am also a big fan of Crump, although I could carry some bias because it was the first "upscale" course I ever played, and it blew away the dinky layouts I had been on before (of which the best was Lyman Orchards).

I've got Blackstone and Crump at the same level as Red Tail, the Ranch, Okemo, Newport National, and Belgrade (with obviously some I like more than others but all I very much enjoy).

If I throw privates in there, I would put all behind Yale, Ekwanok, the Orchards, Longmeadow, Dedham Polo, etc.

In the next tier down, with perhaps a little more stratification, would be Butter Brook, Old Marsh, Cyprian, Sunday River, Vermont National, and Meadow Creek.

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Marsh (Wells, Maine)
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2008, 04:25:27 PM »
Brad...when I played BB yesterday the greens were also quite firm.  Seemed to have a number of greens that were somewhat narrow and pitches from the sides were a challenge to stop the ball.  I also liked 3, I believe, short par 5, with excellent risk/reward and 17.  Par 3's I thought were rather weak.

  BTW having played quite a bit at Blackstone what I once thought might have been "wacky" (except one which is a weak starting hole) I don't anymore.  I think Rees Jones did an excellent job with a hilly piece of property designing some pretty unique holes but it is not highly walkable.  They do have GPS carts tho  ;)

Dan... we have quite similar taste altho haven't played a few of your choices.  I would add Waverly to the top tier.  My personal favorites on the list would be Belgrade, Newport and Red Tail ( haven't played The Ranch).  Belgrade may not necessarily be the best design or most difficult but the views are great, can't beat 15 minute tee times and the course is plain fun.  Newport's green complexes I think are wonderful and Red Tail is Red Tail (except for 11/12, which are mediocre at best).

As to your second tier I would add Kettle Brook and take away Cyprian.  A course I absolutely hate.  Haven't layed it in awhile but just way, way too tight.

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Marsh (Wells, Maine)
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2008, 10:05:19 AM »
I know what you mean about Cyprian. I haven't been back in several years. It was a benchmark course for me. I would play it at the end of the summer when I was really on my game to see how I would do. It is very, very tight.

The Ranch is definitely worth checking out, although it is a destination play since there's no other reason why anyone would ever be in Southwick. It has one of my all-time favorite opening holes . . . a par 5 with a massive fairway and all sorts of options. The 9th and 16th are polarizing . . . par 5s that go straight down the side of a mountain. The tee shot hangs in the air forever. Kind of gimmicky, but I am a sucker for that sort of thing. The only downside is the 18th, which is a huge letdown. In my opinion they missed an opportunity when they chose not to use the land that is the range for 18. That would have been perfect and mirrored in some ways the first. As it is, they have a great range and a crappy finish.

I'm with you on Belgrade. The rocks are overdone in parts, but every time I go there I am amazed at how relaxing and fun it is. And, short of a course on the coast, the views from the clubhouse are second to none.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Marsh (Wells, Maine)
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2008, 02:10:13 PM »
My only Maine golf experiences are Kebo Valley and Webhannet, both of which I thoroughly enjoyed at a younger age, although they belong to another time.  I was not disappointed with the 18th hole at The Ranch but, ironically, I had dislike for the first...thought they tried to include too much...sensory overload.

Played Lake of Isles (the public one) in a monsoon and found it to be tremendously challenging from the tips.

How about Fox Hopyard and the Player course at Lyman Meadows?  Both are incredibly rigged, the Player course to the point of having some ridiculous shot attempts.

How does Cyprian Keyes compare with Mungeam's other recent effort, Oxford Greens? 
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Marsh (Wells, Maine)
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2008, 04:15:43 PM »
Played Fox Hopyard once and did not care for it.  My recollection is way too many forced carries.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Marsh (Wells, Maine)
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2008, 06:08:47 PM »
I just reviewed my Ranch pictures and cannot gather what you like about the range.  It looks pretty flat, in contrast to an 18th hole that utilizes a sideslope off a hill.  When the remaining part of the course is defined by the hills, it makes sense to conclude the journey with such a reminder.  I believe that Pascuzzo chose the proper avenue for his ultimate hole.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: Old Marsh (Wells, Maine)
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2008, 12:50:18 PM »
Ronald

I played The Ranch with Damian Pascuzzo and he preferred the current driving range as the finishing hole. The decision to use location of the current 18th was made for him. To me, and others I know that have played it, 18 is an incredibly week hole with the tee shot up a steep incline and the approach down a steep incline. In my opinion, the  two best holes on the course are 1 and 10 and the land for the range is identical to that of those holes and would have given Damian the freedom to design; with the existing 18th his hand was forced.

By the way, I once jointly held the 18-hole course record at Butter Brook. I played in the media day when the second 9 was opened shooting a smooth 83 with a double on the last. I'm sure the number was eclipsed the next day.

Anthony


Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Marsh (Wells, Maine)
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2008, 01:33:13 PM »
Well, now you know!  Thank you, Anthony.  Did Mr. D.P. give you any idea of the type of hole he would have designed for the driving range?  Why would anyone make that decision for him?  Many NE courses have driving ranges that go up hill sides.  Weird.  Congrats on the course record, by the way.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!