Shoreacres Info

[THuckaby2]

I've been curious for a long time about this Chicago-area great.  We hear snippets and the like, but never much first-hand info.  Can any of the regulars give me more of the inside scoop?  What really makes this course great, or not? How does it compare to other classic courses, or modern greats?

I hear some GCA regulars from CA were there recently... any thoughts?

Did the participants of such recent round live up to their stereotypes?  

TH

[Mike Benham]

Where are the photos of the Point/Counter-Point debate in the grill over a couple of burgers and a few beers?

I believe that this debate might be more compelling then the one scheduled tonight.

[David Wigler]

Huckster,

The course is sheer and utter brilliance.  It is simply one of the best ten courses in the US.  The fact that its subtlety, strategy, and excellence is lost on Shivas is proof that a Northwestern education is not all it is cracked up to be.  Once you finally get over your personal ban of visiting the Midwest, it is a true must see.  Any disagreement is just inane ramblings.

[David Wigler]

OH, and now that you mention insane ramblings, ironically, 3 days ago, I saw one of those smelly streetwalking bums (a bag dude) walking around downtown.   He was wearing a Michigan jacket.  You'd be amazed what 4 years of not washing a jacket does to the Maize and Blue, especially Maize.   At first I thought it was Rick Leach but the more I think about it, I think it was Bo.    

 

Amazing that Ricky Birdsong is now wearing Michigan jackets.  

[tlavin]

Shoreacres is a lovely, sometimes falsely benign-appearing golf course on a spectacular piece of real estate hard by Lake Michigan that effortlessly manages to transport the player back to the 1920's.  

The experience is much like an outdoor museum, but you get to play with all of the new equipment, which makes your walk in the park all that more enjoyable, because with the technology of today, the golf course is relatively easy from a scoring standpoint.  It certainly easily yields par on the overwhelming majority of its holes, while being more stingy with birdies.  Students of old-time architecture will tell you about the redan, the cape, the Biarritz and the rest, but whether you are a Raynorphile or not, you will definitely have a memorable experience at this marvelous golf course.  

The comment that Shoreacres is a Top Ten golf course is somewhat ludicrous, if you base your rating on anything other than classic architecture and great maintenance.  It's a top ten in Chicago, but only the truly devoted would place it in the Top 50 of classic courses in America, IMHO.

[David Wigler]

Terry,

I could not disagree more.  Golf is a game played for pleasure.  I have a job if I want to be frustrated.  The only course in the country that I enjoyed playing more than Shoreacres is Cypress Pointe.  If it is the most enjoyable place to play in the US, how does it not finish in the top 10?

[THuckaby2]

Great stuff, gents.

Now tell me, on what holes will these birdies come purely through execution, and on what holes can the thinking golfer perhaps obtain such, or perhaps a well-planned par, due to his thoughtful play?

TH

[David Wigler]

Shel just told me that.  I only remembered him losing it and leaving the bench to sit with the fans.

[Will E]

The only course you've enjoyed more than Shoreacres is Cypress Point??? IMHO there's a big gap between these two courses.

Shoreacres is a fine course for sure, for my cup of tea  in the area I'd much prefer a round at Lawsonia, Skokie, Beverly, Blackwolf Run, Olympia Fields, Milwaukee CC, and "gasp" even Wynstone.

Wigler, I think you're round at Shoreacres was so enjoyable due to the company rather than the course.

[David Wigler]

Shoreacres is a fine course for sure, for my cup of tea  in the area I'd much prefer a round at Lawsonia, Skokie, Beverly, Blackwolf Run, Olympia Fields, Milwaukee CC, and "gasp" even Wynstone.

Wynstone over ShoreAcres.    You are lucky you married so well because if I didn't adore your wife so much, I would have to disown you over such blasphomy.

[tlavin]

The only course you've enjoyed more than Shoreacres is Cypress Point??? IMHO there's a big gap between these two courses.

Shoreacres is a fine course for sure, for my cup of tea  in the area I'd much prefer a round at Lawsonia, Skokie, Beverly, Blackwolf Run, Olympia Fields, Milwaukee CC, and "gasp" even Wynstone.

Wigler, I think you're round at Shoreacres was so enjoyable due to the company rather than the course.

To each his own, that's for sure.  I guess there is no way to argue personal taste, but I definitely agree with your affection for Beverly, Olympia and Skokie.  I regret to say that Wynstone is quite possibly my LEAST favorite "allegedly good" golf course in Chicago.  Too many cape holes where you have to constantly pray that you make it over the pond and too many holes with OB stakes planted in some rich bastard's back yard.

Anybody who has played Shoreacres has to love the place, even if they felt that they "scored too well", as if that is a valid complaint.  Shoreacres is a little slice of heaven on earth, from the drive in, to the quaint locker room and grill, to the gaping ravines and labyrinthine creeks.  It is the kind of place that you silently pray that your friend will invite you back to soon, because every round at Shoreacres finds its place in the memory bank.

My favorite: I played in a Pro-Am with a friend who was terminally ill with colon cancer about 12 years ago.  We played nine holes with Tom Purtzer and nine holes with Fred Couples.  I was a 20 handicap at the time and the greens were running about 12.  I was still playing MacGregor persimmon woods and colorkrom irons and I shot an 86.  My buddy shot a 77 and died two weeks later.  The night before he died, he was looking at some home video footage of the golf round.  He kept telling his son that he needed to get his hands higher on his backswing.  That is the magic of golf.  It so pervades you that a dying man would still think about working on his game the night before he passed away.

His last round of golf was at Shoreacres with Couples, Purtzer and me.  Pretty cool.

[Will E]

Terry,
Notice the "gasp" before I mentioned Wynstone, I threw it in there to insure a response from Wigler. Shoreacres 10-13 are world class for sure, too many holes I can easily forget keep it off my short list though.
As far as the most "allegedly good" golf courses that fall short, the winner in a land slide has to be Conway Farms.

I will continue in my efforts to open Wigler's eyes to architecture, I fear that my results may be similar to the one's I've achieved in trying to help his golf swing

[George Pazin]

Great story, Terry - thanks for sharing it with us.

[Matt_Ward]

As I make my trek to the Reno area for some weekend golf and gambling I have to chime in about Shoreacres.

For those who overdose on Raynor courses you will be happy. For those looking for a consumate 18-hole experience Shoreacres will let you down. How it consistently finishes in the top 50 in the USA is mindboggling -- must be the same people who opine that Maidstone is akin to the dynamic duo next to it.

The course features replica type holes from Raynor and frankly Fisher's Island and Camarho are miles beyond it IMHO.

Huck -- I had the pleasure in playing Shoreacres in the morning a few years ago and then Skokie in the afternoon. While the former left me scratching my mind (that's saying it mildly) the latter was a real treat for what has been since the restoratin effort by Ron Prichard. I have heard similar things about the success at Beverly and next time I'm in Chi town I'll be sure to check it out.

Huck -- one last thing -- Shoreacres is not a top 50 in the USA and when you size it against courses in your neck-of-the-woods like Pasatiempo and a few others of comparable level you will see exactly what I mean.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Shoreacres was the first Raynor course I played, and it was one of my favorite golf experiences, too. I recall pitching it to Whitten as a hidden gem that no one had heard of at that time, much as Doak pitched CD as a hidden gem to all who would listen.

SA is no long so hidden among those who care about gca, but it is still a gem.  Whether it is top 10, 50, 100, or 1000, I don't care.  It is what it is - a charming golf experience every time out, that made the best use of its topography.  

The unusual design features (for me at the time) do transport you back in time like few other courses. Doug Radar, the super at the time, was researching - and explaining - the Raynor concepts to me, adding to the experience.  Matt, I haven't seen FI, but I doubt their versions of at least some holes could be vastly superior.

And, that was also my first experience putting on greens at plus 10 on the stimpmeter, and highly contoured ones at that.  I came away thinking our golfing forefathers were certainly stoute men than I!

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

Shoreacres is a hidden gem to the Chicago crowd but there are no less than a half a dozen or more "type" courses in the NY / NJ metro area -- not including the Phillie section that would give Shoreacres a big time run for its money IMHO.

Let's not forget the lame start and the lackluster finish. No doubt there are solid holes among the middle of the course. Like I said if you want to see Raynor at his finest -- Fisher's Island and Camargo is the way to go.

[tlavin]

SA is no long so hidden among those who care about gca, but it is still a gem.  Whether it is top 10, 50, 100, or 1000, I don't care.  It is what it is - a charming golf experience every time out, that made the best use of its topography.  

Well said, indeed.  The whole ranking issue is so subjective, that it sometimes becomes farcical.  Every round at Shoreacres is fun and memorable.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

I know enough not to try to argue with you, unless I want to go on to infinity!  There is no doubt that NY/NJ/and Phillie have tons of great courses.

That said, one of the knocks I hear on Chi Town golf courses is that they simply don't have the topography of east coast courses.  That, of course, is not the truth in the case of Shore Acres.  

While I have only seen Camargo and Fishers from the limited pictures on this web site, the ocean at FI provides a nice backdrop, and Camargo is gently rolling.  So, I still have a hard time (even if those photos aren't the most dramatic holes on the site) thinking any Raynor course could have had a more dramatic topo than SA, with its ravines integrated in the design.  What can I say, I love those ravines.....

Have a great weekend.

[cary lichtenstein]

Shoreacres always underwhelmed me. 10-13 + a few more holes, but to put it in a class with Cypress is ridiculus. If you said Friar's Head is in a class with Cypress, yes, that would be correct.

[A_Clay_Man]

It is the under-whelming (reads subtle) natural aspects of SA golf course, that makes it great. Almost lulling the golfer, especially at first, with what really is just a walk in the park. Perhaps the quintesential parkland golf course? Throw in some quirk from the natural ravines, and those greens, and you have all it ever has to be. If anything, people expect something grandiose, and that likely leads to their disappointment, or head scratching.

The experience is classy, not stuffy. A big difference IMO

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

No argument here about the unique interplay of the ravine that cuts through a number of holes in the middle of the course. The issue for me is the TOTALITY of what you find at Shoreacres. Since you have only seen pictures of Fisher's Island and Camargo and have not played them I personally believe the push for Shoreacres is attributed to the fan club Raynor has among purists.

Let's me be a bit more frank -- Raynor made a career in designing replica holes. Likely, if you have played one of Raynor courses you may have seen the full arsenal in his design bag.

Shoreacres may be one of the finest for Chicago ut when you throw the layout into the water of superior "hidden gem" layouts in the NY / NJ metro area along with the Phillie section it's my opinion that Shoreacres would simply fall somewhere behind a good number of "unknown" courses that get little attention (Essex County CC -- restored through Gil Hanse and George Bahto) is a case in point.

I never said Shoreacres was dog food -- not at all. It's just not a top 50 or top 100 in the USA given the sampling of courses I have played over my lifetime.

[George Pazin]

Let's me be a bit more frank -- Raynor made a career in designing replica holes. Likely, if you have played one of Raynor courses you may have seen the full arsenal in his design bag.

I wonder how many people on this site would agree with this comment. More than a few hold Raynor in slightly higher regard than this (sarcasm intended), and these folks include architects - Tom D, Pete Dye, Brian Silva, etc. - passionate fans of GCA - Ran, George Bahto, Tom P, etc. -  and apparently more than a few raters.

Guess you can't sum up some guys' careers with yardage, course rating and slope from the tippy tips.

[cary lichtenstein]

Fisher's Island...now that is WOnderful

[DMoriarty]

I hear some GCA regulars from CA were there recently... any thoughts?

Did the participants of such recent round live up to their stereotypes?  

TH

Tom

Sorry I havent answered sooner but frankly I am still much more in step with the curious than the strongly convicted.  I've only played once, so have little to add beyond noting that I had a very enjoyable round with terrific company.  But a few of my most initial impressions:  

SA is definitely fun . . . much wider landing areas than I expected . . . seems like most strategic considerations emanate from the green contours, and that it would take multiple plays to begin to get a feel for the different angles . . . great setting, like a trip back in time . . .

As for the greens, they were great fun to putt . . . a comfortable putting environment; fast enough and contoured enough to make a really bad putt look really bad, but otherwise subtle yet not overly difficult to read or putt.  

I have very little experience with Raynor courses so it was a treat to play some of the more famous template holes.   SA's redan provides a good example of a very unnatural hole which still has great character and still seems to fit.  I doubt I would be as accepting if it wasn't on an esteemed Raynor course, but this is more an indictment of my skill as an evaluator, rather than an indictment of the hole or the course.  

I really enjoyed seeing and trying to play the biarritz, as it is the most biarritzy hole I've seen in person.    I wonder though whether the strategy of this particular hole is unfortunately antiquated, at least for the better golfers?    

A few more random thoughts/questions:  Poanna/bent greens sure to provide a true putting surface; Chicago sure is flat; Cool coulies.  

That is all I have for now . . .  .