News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


JakaB

Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2004, 03:12:39 PM »
As always, I enter the fray late....

barney, you're all wet on this one!  Even if you love Augusta more than anything in the world, this is like being asked if you'd rather nail the single hottest woman on the planet once or 30 really, really hot different broads every night for a month!

Gimme a break.  If you'd choose the hottest broad for a night over 30 hot broads for a month, now I know where those man-tits come from!  ;D I suppose you feel it's better to get to know them on an emotional level first?  ::)


Shivas,

Being married to my wife is like being a member at Augusta....
« Last Edit: September 28, 2004, 03:23:43 PM by John B. Kavanaugh »

THuckaby2

Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2004, 03:23:25 PM »
To me, Augusta doesn't rise to the "drop everything" level for one simple reason -- I get to see it for 4 days every year.  Same goes for Pebble.  Yeah, it's TV, but still...

IMO, the "drop everything" list has 2 main components:  (1) it has to be universally proclaimed by people I trust as GREAT and (2) there is a huge mystery/curiosity component to it (in other words, I have no real way to see it other than to play it).  

I look at this just the same way.  And I STILL put Augusta #1 - or very close thereto - the only other contender for me is likely Pine Valley.  Because re Augusta, although we can see it, from afar every year, from all I hear, you really don't KNOW IT until you play it.  And the fact it would make future Masters' viewings that much more fun is a heavy value indeed.

Pine Valley would have to be the Platonic Ideal for your criteria, btw.  Of course it too is on any left nut/drop everything list.

TH

« Last Edit: September 28, 2004, 03:27:49 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2004, 03:45:39 PM »
Issue #10 - Rita Heywuhth or Ava Gahdnah - who would you rather nail?  I disqualify myself because I've done em both...

will anyone get this reference?   ;)

 ;D
One of my all-time favorite SNL skits!   Phil Hartman as The Chairman of the Board doing a roundtable talk show with Sting as Billy Idol, Jan Hooks as Sinead O'Connor, Mike Myers as ass-kissing Steve Lawrence, and Julia Sweeney as ass-kissing Edie Gourmet.

In that skit, Sinatra calls Sinead O'Connor "Skinhead", "Cue Ball", and "Uncle Fester" at different points.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2004, 03:46:37 PM by Scott_Burroughs »

Dale_McCallon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #53 on: September 28, 2004, 03:51:17 PM »
Mike,

I will admit to being one  of the AGNC lovers.  Went to a practice round a few years ago and was blown away by everything about the place.    Seein it on tv doesn't do it justice.  From the cabins, to the clubhouse, and obviously the course everything is pure class.  This has to be the top of the list for me--give me the top 10 anyday over the full 31 just for this reason.  And it is not like the other 9 are chopped liver themselves.

THuckaby2

Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #54 on: September 28, 2004, 03:55:12 PM »
Scott/Dave:

My faith in humanity is restored.  I was going to be quite bummed if I was the only one here who got that.

 ;D

And Dave, well... St. Andrews Old Course is public, in a sense.  But I agree with your take here completely.  Only I do look at Augusta a bit differently.  Tell me there's no mystique there.  Outside of people on this board, do you know ANYONE who's played there?  I can count one.  I'm sure you must know a few.  But the list is damn small, that's for sure.


John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #55 on: September 28, 2004, 03:59:06 PM »
Shivas,
How do you come up with this crap so fast?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #56 on: September 28, 2004, 04:01:58 PM »
Shivas,
How do you come up with this crap so fast?

It's called Google search and cut-and-paste.

;D
Good stuff, Shivas!  I forgot about Chris Rock as Luther Campbell.  And it wasn't "Skinhead", but "Sinbad".  


"I got chunks of guys like you in my stool!"


And the guys above basically said what I would have said about ANGC vs. the rest.   I bleed '86 and '04 Masters, but it's just one course.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2004, 04:03:26 PM by Scott_Burroughs »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #57 on: September 28, 2004, 04:10:21 PM »
Do terms like "disfigured" and "the Augusta syndrome" as well as the history of the tournament and its long-standing television exposure actually DETRACT from what's in the ground today?  Why is this not as good a golf course as any that exists in the United States of America?

WHAT AM I MISSING?

Mike  
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

THuckaby2

Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #58 on: September 28, 2004, 04:15:20 PM »
Do terms like "disfigured" and "the Augusta syndrome" as well as the history of the tournament and its long-standing television exposure actually DETRACT from what's in the ground today?  Why is this not as good a golf course as any that exists in the United States of America?

WHAT AM I MISSING?

Mike  

Dave would argue that TV exposure detracts from what's in the ground, as he explains above.  I don't completely agree.  But it is a point to be considered.

As for the "Augusta syndrome", well that has been a bane to our game for sure.  But sometimes principles need to be ignored.  Of course I do that all the time, so I am likely not the right one to discuss this.   ;)

There's one course on this planet that if I got an invite, my wife would BUY THE FREAKIN' PLANE TICKET for me, rather than listen to my standard begging.  It ain't Pine Valley.

See, even golf-hating wives understand what Augusta means.  

And that's a big reason why it's a holy grail.


Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #59 on: September 28, 2004, 04:32:37 PM »
Put me down as an unabashed lover of ANGC. The reason in my mind that it's one of the holy grails is because it's a fantasy that all golfers in America share. Thus creating a common bond between all. We are envious of those that get to attend the Masters and jealous of those that get to play. The participants on this web-site may fantasize about Sand Hills, Shinnecock, or Pine Valley but the masses have no idea as to what those places look like or theY may not even know that they exists. Every year it's drilled into the golfing psyche that ANGC is a magical and historical place by CBS.

THuckaby2

Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #60 on: September 28, 2004, 04:40:18 PM »
Put me down as an unabashed lover of ANGC. The reason in my mind that it's one of the holy grails is because it's a fantasy that all golfers in America share. Thus creating a common bond between all. We are envious of those that get to attend the Masters and jealous of those that get to play. The participants on this web-site may fantasize about Sand Hills, Shinnecock, or Pine Valley but the masses have no idea as to what those places look like or theY may not even know that they exists. Every year it's drilled into the golfing psyche that ANGC is a magical and historical place by CBS.

Absolutely dead right-on nailed it, Bill.  That's what I've been trying (and failing) to get at.  As much as we like to deny it, part of the coolness of playing great courses like this is coming back to the buddies and telling them all about it, with a certain smugness (and with crap returned) that one can only do with one's friends.  At least for me, returning from NGLA and Sand Hills brought only yawns from them - as much as I do consider each personally to be in the top 3 courses on the planet and found my time there to be life-changing!  None of my friends had even heard of either.

Returning from Augusta would make me a legend.

And that's due to just exactly what you say - the experience we all share about the place.

TH

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #61 on: September 28, 2004, 04:57:39 PM »
Shivas,

What's unique about it is the common desire to play and see the course. No other course creates this shared bond between the golfing masses. In one sense it is very exclusive which is the ANGC part and the Masters in another sense is very inclusive in the shared fantasy. The ability to be both inclusive and exclusive at the same time is unique.


JakaB

Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2004, 05:15:25 PM »
Shivas,

If you don't care about ANGC...do you have a nut you want to crack and if so why haven't you cracked it.   I don't expect you to name the course but for instance I really wanted to play St. Louis CC because it is a short drive for me and I go to St. Louis all the time.   Funny thing in that a month or so ago a guy who I asked to play a course I am a member of asked me to join him at SLCC where he was just accepted.....so I spent an extra night in town and enjoyed the course.....not to mention the people I met that day.   My point being.....is there really a course in the country that you don't believe you will get to play.    When you say it is not about the man....isn't it all about the man.   Can't any good man who treats people fair and shows a love and respect for the game play any course in the world if he just has a little patience.   Don't insult your good friends who invite you to the great courses in the world by poo pooing them off as connections....It wasn't connections that got you and so many other worthy people out to Sand Hills....it was friendships....not a bad measure of a man..

THuckaby2

Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2004, 05:24:04 PM »
Dave:

Bottom line:  I came back from NGLA and Sand Hills, told my buddies, not a one of them had heard of either.  If I come back from Augusta, I become a legend.

So this likely comes down to our experiences and acquaintances, which are likely quite different.  Part of what would make me legendary is that I HAD a contact that could get me on Augusta.  That's no big deal to you - you actually have contacts like that.  I'm not even close.  Making such happen connotes legend, and how it occurs is just part of it.

I can understand your points, for sure.  They just don't apply as much to me.  As mine likely don't to you, also.  No problems there.

For a guy like me, Augusta remains the holiest of grails.  All others are great golf courses, and god I love playing each and every one I am lucky enough to play, but they don't give legend status.

BTW, one that does is Cypress.  But that might be just a local thing.

TH
« Last Edit: September 28, 2004, 05:25:59 PM by Tom Huckaby »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2004, 05:24:47 PM »
JakaB -

You better stop making sensible posts like that last one or people will get the wrong idea about you.

Mike H -

Read Ran's profile. I think it accurately encapsulates the feelings of many on here. Damn near everyone thinks it's a special course, just maybe not quite as special as you think, and many are saddened at the changes. That doesn't mean they wouldn't love to play it, changes and all.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike_Cirba

Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2004, 05:32:21 PM »
John Kavanaugh;

That's a great post and I've found it to be 99.9% true.

However, I also know a couple of fellows who've played everywhere they've wanted to...with the somewhat glaring exception of Augusta National.

It makes me wonder if that isn't part of the allure and how much we'd all be grovelling if it wasn't the home of the Masters, but just another cool course in the south?  

Mike Hendren asks what it is lacking in that golf course compared to some of the others that this group loves.  Perhaps it's better to ask the membership itself, as they seem to constantly feel the need to change it.   ;)

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2004, 06:06:52 PM »
Even in the top ten you get a dog now and then....Pebble is the throwaway of the 10..

Well, that certainly makes my answer an easy one. If Pebble is the throwaway on the Top 10, give me the Top 10 every time.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

JakaB

Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2004, 06:22:31 PM »

Can't any good man who treats people fair and shows a love and respect for the game play any course in the world if he just has a little patience.


Shivas,

I not only stand by it I live it...I think you need to realize that these great clubs we speak of are really just nice little member tracks.....and each and every member prefers to play with friends instead of entertaining clients.   I promise you that if you as a big city Chicago lawyer spend the next forty years treating every person you meet on the street and in your business life with the greatest respect and sense of fairness you will someday garner an invite to any course in the world you may want to play.....you are a golfer and people can smell it on your shoes....just be patient my friend and the courses will come to you.   It really is quite simple.   You believe me don't you.....the invite is coming and it's not going to be because of some deal you struck or some paragraph you penned......I know you are a lawyer and by nature you need to screw somebody....so my best advice is screw your connections and cherish your friends....and it will be glorious golfing down the road..  

JakaB

Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2004, 10:24:15 PM »
That hurts....I would never introduce a competition ball...

THuckaby2

Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2004, 10:33:20 PM »
Tom, where do you get the idea that I have these dozens of guys asking me to play ANGC?  I know guys who have played there.  BFD.  The day I get asked to play ANGC the the day the azaleas freeze over, though.  My point is que sera sera, or however the hell you spell that.  Believe it or not, I really don't want to play anywhere in particular (other than maybe an occasional trip to Scotland or England, but that fits with my position -- that it's going out of your way to play somewhere that says something about you).

Let me ask you a question:

Would you say "yes" to somebody who offered to give you $1 billion? (not a trick question - no strings attached)

Of course, everybody would.   So how does accepting it make you special?  



Wow do we look at this differently.

First, I never said, nor meant to say, that you had many invites to Augusta.  If you did, you would have played there by now.  What I meant is the difference between us is as you said yourself, you know quite a few people that have played there, or that could find a way to play there.  I know exactly one person outside this forum who has actually played the course, and exactly ZERO contacts who could make it happen for themselves or others.  It is that kind of exclusive.  And thus our experiences are different... for me, making this happen - that is actually getting on - would mean I found a connection that would give me legendary status, amongst my group of friends.  The reaction would be universal and would be exactly this:

"How in the HELL did you manage that?"

Now of course this would say nothing about me as a person, in terms of achievement or anything.  But what it would say is I have played Augusta, which would be legendary in and of itself.  Again, not for any achievement per se, but just because I would have done it.

And in your example, the obvious answer is accepting the billion dollars sure as hell does make you special.  It makes you a billionaire.  Now of course in the great karmic philosophical universe that in and of itself is no great achievement.  But the bottom line is you join a very select group of people who can do anything they want with their lives, with no limitations financially.

And the same goes for Augusta... if you play there, you join an incredibly small group of golfers who can answer Pat Mucci's questions when discussions of the golf holes inevitably come up.  And for me, I become a legend.

I don't expect you to understand this.  But it's second nature to me.  And the real bottom line here is that all legendary status and impressing one's friends aside, I just do think in all honesty that playing Augusta would be REALLY REALLY REALLY fun.  You don't think I'm gonna try my ass off to reach 13 and 15 in two?  That I'm not gonna plant a ball on 17 green and do a "maybe.... yes sir!!!" on myself?  That I'm not gonna pick up my tee and not watch my tee shot on 16?  The chances to live out glory are endless.  That in and of itself makes it a holy grail, all this other bs aside.

BTW, not to toot my own horn, but I feel like I'm a pretty nice guy and I know I have no chance in hell of ever really playing Augusta.  I'd be happy to be you and John's lab rat.

 ;D
« Last Edit: September 28, 2004, 10:37:38 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2004, 12:22:43 AM »
I'll take a stab at Tom's top 10 from that 31 (which granted, isn't the same as his actual top 10).  It might just be his 10s and 9s, but maybe not?

TOC
NGLA
Ballybunion
Sand Hills
Pine Valley
Pinehurst
Merion
Crystal Downs
Royal Dornoch
Rye?

I'll guess he might replace Rye with Prairie Dunes.

Upon further review (of my copy of TCG), Doak rates both Rye and PD a "9".

My how we stray OT easily. ::)

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2004, 12:36:50 AM »
Paul Turner:

It's unusual for me to disagree with you, but your assertion that Ballybunion is "way too busy" simply isn't correct.

Time for "green fees" - outside play - is limited. That's true.

But, playing during member time isn't much different than circa 1980's.
Tim Weiman

JakaB

Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2004, 08:18:46 AM »

BTW, not to toot my own horn, but I feel like I'm a pretty nice guy and I know I have no chance in hell of ever really playing Augusta.  I'd be happy to be you and John's lab rat.


Huck,

According to the rules Shivas has set forth in his argument against my belief that anyone can play any course..you are not common enough....What we need is a 19 yr old Division II college golfer studying social work or elementary education....the tough part will be molding a lover of the game who is not a golf whore...

THuckaby2

Re:Which Would You Rather
« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2004, 09:36:24 AM »
John:

DAMN.  That's gotta be a first.  But I can understand the reasoning.  I wouldn't be a good enough example.

I still want to play Augusta REALLY bad, though.

 ;D