[redanman]

Carried over from the Morgan Hill thread as not to divert that thread......

If you hop on PA 611 Northbound, it is 2+ miles north of US 22 -the very newest course in Easton, PA -  "Riverview".  The professional is a very nice young man Kevin Edwards, formerly the asst. professional at Lehigh CC.

Riverview is an excrutiatingly fair golf course with a novel concept that I have never seen before obviously designed to help along the weaker player.  In the line of play tee to green on each and every hole is a cut of rough which is about 3/8 inches of wiry rye grass (I think) which props up the ball very well, tees it up if you will. I doubt that there are 20 acres of true fairway on this course.  The fairway cut exists as Islands in the rough cut. Conditioning is excellent.  The greens are smallish and interesting for Blaukovitch and have large first cut height chipping areas on some holes.  Some holes rely on wetlands and massive bunker forced carries to hold back the long hitter, but possibly mire the handicap man.

6500 yards par 71 from the very tips it is not a pushover, but not anything otherwise ususual in the world of golf course architecture.  It would not be particularily popular with this crowd, but it will be a huge commercial success providing many a golfer the opportunity to break 100, 90, 80 and 70 for the first time while still presenting a challenge and superb conditioning  save the troubled 12th green which suffers due to factors of sun, drainage and trees (off the property) immediately apparent to those aware of such matters.

This course is just what the owners asked for.  In hte first week of operation (last week) they had over 60 repeat plays.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bill

Thanks for the info. Is there a need in the Lehigh Valley for more courses? I am amazed that Center Valley has not built a club house after being open for 10 years. Have you played Bethlehem Municpal lately? I just read Joe Logan's good review in his book.

Here is the website:

www.riverviewestates.com

Here is Blaukovitch's website:

www.jbadesign.com

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bill

OOPS! That Blaukovitch website should be:

www.jbadesigns.com

If what Matt said about Morgan Hill is on point, then Morgan Hill/ Riverview should be diverting more golfers from NJ from Center Valley as they are closer for them. I guess I don't realize the impact of I78 on the area golf market. All of these courses are on the fringe of the Philly market. I like Locust Valley- a great value course.

Steve

[Mike_Cirba]

He's a better architect than his website address would indicate.  

jbaddesigns.com

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

The Jersey market is slowly but ever surely moving away from the Burger King style golf that dominates the Poconos and is playing more and more along the I-78 corridor from Jersey into Pennsy.

The other thing to keep in mind is that I-78 is a great feeder for the guys from Staten Island. Many of them play regularly in Middlesex County at Tamarack and the Somerset County courses. It's faster to come to Jersey than go the opposite direction to the Island.

Regarding Jim B ...

One of the better courses I like is in Tunckhannock Township which is just outside Scraton. There you will find Stone Hedge. The course may still not have a clubhouse but the layout does have a nice mixture of holes -- some of them plain jane vanilla but there are no less than six holes that are quite solid.

You play a pedestrian opening hole but the 2nd hole has got to be among the toughest par-4's within public golf of the courses I have played in the Keystone State. You have to step on a tee shot to fairway that curves slightly to the left and is uphill. The approach is no less exacting as you need to gauge your distance and trajectory properly.

The course has a few holes of note on the back nine as well with the downhill par-5 11th and the closing hole is also quite good.

Stone Hedge will not likely win any awards but frankly it's a far better course than much of the inane stuff that calls itself golf in the Pocono region IMHO.

[Rick Shefchik]

Riverview is an excrutiatingly fair golf course with a novel concept that I have never seen before obviously designed to help along the weaker player.  In the line of play tee to green on each and every hole is a cut of rough which is about 3/8 inches of wiry rye grass (I think) which props up the ball very well, tees it up if you will. I doubt that there are 20 acres of true fairway on this course.  The fairway cut exists as Islands in the rough cut.

Redanman -- Does this concept create a lot of fliers? It reminded me of Shivas' suggestion a while back of putting "flier strips" into fairways to deter long hitters.

[Andy Hughes]

from the Burger King style golf that dominates the Poconos

Matt, just out of curiosity, what is the Burger King style?  A 'have it your way' type of thing, or an obviousness sameness to all the courses?

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

"Burger King" style golf is simply low level stuff (like the fast food) that is utterly predictable and simply yawn style architecture. The Poconos is the Vatican for this type of stuff in nearly all instances. The lone exception is Great Bear by Jack Nicklaus in Marshalls Creek and to a much lesser degree Shawnee.

You have a number of "old' style courses that have taken quirk to a level that is way past the point of sanity. Come to think of it the "quirk conference" could be held at Pocono Manor!

Let me point it this way -- if you have a friend and he says that he wants to take you to a great place to play golf -- e.g. the Poconos -- run, don't walk, to get to your attorney and have him removed from your will pronto!

[Matt_Ward]

Bill:

Jersey has its moment as well -- just go to Bear Brook in Fredon and see the 740 yard par-5 runway hole. Geoff Childs was with me when we played together there.

The same mentality that created much of the Poconos must have crossed the Delaware when this "hidden gem" was created in Fredon, NJ.

[Andy Hughes]

"Burger King" style golf is simply low level stuff (like the fast food) that is utterly predictable and simply yawn style architecture. The Poconos is the Vatican for this type of stuff in nearly all instances. The lone exception is Great Bear by Jack Nicklaus in Marshalls Creek and to a much lesser degree Shawnee.

Yes, I had a feeling you didn't mean it in a complimentary way
Its been many years since I have played in the Poconos.  I do have fond memories of Tamiment and Shawnee, as well as Water Gap (home of the Eastern Open back in the 30s!!  ).  
But have you ever played Glenbrook?  I think it a very under-rated course, and I actually played quite a bit there back in the 80s.  No idea how it is now, but there were a number of good and interesting holes there.

PS No idea why you think a course with a 77 yard hole straight downhill is 'quirky'!  
I always had fun there anyway, though I guess I tend to like most courses.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

If the Poconos disappeared TOMORROW the state of golf course architecture would not be set back one iota!

Yes, I have played Glenbrook -- I remember really well the neat starting hole -- the par-3 that plays about 190 yards. There used to be a guy from the club who would bet you a sleeve of balls for $1 if you could hit and stay on the green. Few people ever collected the sleeve.

Glenbrook does have a few good holes but it too is the same low octane architecture that permeates the area.

I'll stick with Great Bear and head over to Morgan Hill for some quality golf -- the rest is simply hideous stuff.

[Andy Hughes]

Yes, I have played Glenbrook -- I remember really well the neat starting hole -- the par-3 that plays about 190 yards. There used to be a guy from the club who would bet you a sleeve of balls for $1 if you could hit and stay on the green. Few people ever collected the sleeve.
Glenbrook does have a few good holes but it too is the same low octane architecture that permeates the area.

Heh! Yeah, I haven't thought much about Glenbrook in years, but that was quite an opening hole. Incidentally, for a long time that was actually #10. Did you happen to really take note of the green, and the virtually impossible upper tier?  I rarely saw the hole there, but talk about brutal!
Actually, there are a number of good holes. I would strongly disagree that it is low octane architecture.
Let's see: 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 all required either good, precise play or were of interest.  I am surprised you dismiss it out of hand Matt.  Some holes seemed far more mundane than they really were.
For example, 3 did not seem like much, with miles of room out to the right to drive it and only what, 360 yards or so?  But with the tree right of the green, a 'safe' tee shot right made the second shot much, much harder.  Also, the green was raised 3-5 feet above its surrounds.  Much more to the hole that it appeared.  A number of holes were like that.
I wonder if you only played there once?

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Let me fill you in on my golfing travels. I have played all the key courses in the Poconos for over 30 years. I have played Glenbrook no less than two dozen times over that period with a group of dedicated public links golfers from North Jersey. I don't just "talk the talk" -- I have done the personal inspection -- the "walk the walk" if you will.

Andy -- you use the word "interest" to describe the golf at Glenbrook -- I would say the word would be unexceptional. Heck, if you decide to book a tee time there they use the word "sporty" to describe the layout. Frankly, "sporty" layouts are quite modest in their overall presentation and often accentuate the quirky aspects. The holes at Glenbrook follow the land but let's not forget the silly tee-pee green on the par-3 on the front side -- nothing like hitting to the top of a car roof!

Yes, I am aware of the green contours on the 1st hole -- what used to be the 10th. Like I said the green complex was vexing to players with their first shot of the day. Too bad more of the 1st wasn't included for the rest of the round.  

Glenbrook is better than the low level hash that calls itself golf in the Poconos but frankly, why would I or others want to play there when courses such as Great Bear and Morgan Hill are readily available? Don't know if you have played GB or MH -- but they are worlds apart in terms of course quality IMHO. I have no desire to play Pocono Manor, CC of the Poconos, Mount Airy Lodge and all the rest of the slop that parades itself around as a true golfing experience.

Why don't you do me a favor and let me know what Doak scale number you would give Glenbrook? I would give it no more than a 3 and that's being quite fair. Also, please tell me what courses in the general vicinity you would rate higher than Glenbrook -- Great Bear is no less than 5 and Morgan Hill a 6 in my book.

The Poconos simply includes golf as a diversionary activity -- like shuffleboard and badminton. Quality golf course architecture is as far removed from there as real snow is in downtown Miami Beach.

[Mike_Cirba]

While I am nowhere near as adamant as Matt about the lack of quality courses in the Poconos, I would agree that the Country Club of the Poconos at Big Ridge (Mike's rule of thumb...if a course has more than 3 words in the title, RUN) is one of the worst golf courses I've ever seen.  

Designed by Jim Fazio, it has the dual distinction of requiring a 12 MILE!! (not a misprint) cart jaunt, as well as the worst hole I've ever seen, which requires a 140 yard layup off the tee, followed by a 210 yard approach over blind reeds and wetlands to a green sitting in a swamp.

One can only imagine how bad it would be if they only had 11 miles to work with.  

[Andy Hughes]

Let me fill you in on my golfing travels. I have played all the key courses in the Poconos for over 30 years. I have played Glenbrook no less than two dozen times over that period with a group of dedicated public links golfers from North Jersey. I don't just "talk the talk" -- I have done the personal inspection -- the "walk the walk" if you will.

Excellent, though why you would want to play a course you think so little of so many times strikes me as odd.

Andy -- you use the word "interest" to describe the golf at Glenbrook -- I would say the word would be unexceptional. Heck, if you decide to book a tee time there they use the word "sporty" to describe the layout. Frankly, "sporty" layouts are quite modest in their overall presentation and often accentuate the quirky aspects. The holes at Glenbrook follow the land but let's not forget the silly tee-pee green on the par-3 on the front side -- nothing like hitting to the top of a car roof!

You use the word 'quirk' like its a putdown Matt. Perhaps it is to you?  However, I didn't consider Glenbrook to be particularly heavy in the quirk category, other than the perhaps #7 as you have mentioned.

Yes, I am aware of the green contours on the 1st hole -- what used to be the 10th. Like I said the green complex was vexing to players with their first shot of the day. Too bad more of the 1st wasn't included for the rest of the round.

Yes, I will agree that most of the other greens lack the first's dramatic contouring.

Glenbrook is better than the low level hash that calls itself golf in the Poconos but frankly, why would I or others want to play there when courses such as Great Bear and Morgan Hill are readily available? Don't know if you have played GB or MH -- but they are worlds apart in terms of course quality IMHO. I have no desire to play Pocono Manor, CC of the Poconos, Mount Airy Lodge and all the rest of the slop that parades itself around as a true golfing experience.

I have not played in the Poconos in many years.  Great Bear must have shown up after I left, and Morgan Hill obviously did.  My intent is not to compare Glenbrook to either of them, but to have it stand (or fall) on its own merits.
Also, I have never heard of CC of the Poconos; is it newish, or is it a rename of an older course?

Why don't you do me a favor and let me know what Doak scale number you would give Glenbrook? I would give it no more than a 3 and that's being quite fair. Also, please tell me what courses in the general vicinity you would rate higher than Glenbrook -- Great Bear is no less than 5 and Morgan Hill a 6 in my book.

If I knew how to come up with a Doak Scale number, I would partake of this game. But even if I knew, I could not rate Great Bear or Morgan Hill.

Perhaps a hole by hole look would be edifying. I know I would enjoy your thoughts in a more specific sense rather than the broadbrush "it's all lousy." I have already described #3 and what I consider its charms/strengths.  It was one of the most under-rated holes I have ever played.  Nary a comment from you on that fine, unsung hole?
The rest of the front nine comes under the microscope tomorrow!

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

My visits to the Poconos were long before I "saw the light" on quality golf course architecture. I visited there as a teen through my college years on a regular basis. Like I said -- without sounding the least bit arrogant -- when I eventually started to play with regularity quality golf courses I almost kicked myself in the head for having wasted soooooooooo much time playing the slop that calls itself golf there. Yes, there might be an exceptoin or two but I'll stick it out with Great Bear and Morgan Hill because they are light years beyond the silly stuff that parades itself as a golfing experience.

Let me share with you a small aside -- the first hole at Mount Airy Lodge has to be one of the worst starting holes in the world. Straigh tuphill for 550 yards with a small pond that is completely blind for the second shot. I have personally seen no less than five to six groups attemtping to play the hole and it simply astounds me on the magnitude of the slow play that just one hole can cause.

Andy -- when I use the word "quirk" it takes on a prejorative meaning for the Poconos golf "style" simply because the meaning of sound golf architecture for me -- the good shot rewarded and the poor shot pubished proportionally to the manner in which they are executed -- is often turned on its head many times over. The people who designed the golf in the Poconos simply added holes on hilly terrain without careful and deliberate thought on how shots would fare. It is "sporty" -- what a nice PC word to describe goofy and inane outcomes.

CC of the Poconos bills itself as a "Fazio" designed layout but the course is done by Jim not the more noted Tom. The layout is like a sleigh ride without any boundaries. Mike Cirba -- a person who very infrequrntly says a negative word about any course -- said it best with HIS comments. That should tel you plenty about the course. There is no routing -- it is like a crazed NY Times crossword puzzle with no solution.

Do yourself a big favor and play Great Bear in Marshalls Creek. Jack Nicklaus and his team did a solid job with a golf ocurse that is based on some sort of ingrained pattern of sanity. The holes are nicely routed and the diversity of holes will keep you guessing on what is required. A very fair and worthwhile alternative -- ditto Moran's newest effort with Morgan Hill.

Andy -- I will be happy to describe any aspect of GlenBrook but frankly my desire is not as strong as yours may be because I don't find the discussion of inferior courses to be so important. Glenbrook is a 3 on the Doak scale for me -- that means it's abou average -- that's not bad when compared to the rest of the slop in the oconos but I'm not heading to go there right this minute for a future round either.

Hope this helps ...

[Matt_Ward]

Since this thread started on Jim Blaukovitch designs I wanted to reiterate thathis work at Stone Hedge in Tunckhannock Township -- just west of Scranton isn't that bad of a layout for a course that measures just 6,644 yards.

The uphill 2nd is simply one of the best public holes in Pennsy from the ones I have played. You start off with a very benign opener at 339 yards and you think this is cream-puff city. Forget about it as the 2nd is a demanding no nonsense hole. You can play down the left side PROVIDED you stay away from a series of fairway bunkers on that side. The green is perched nicely above the fairway and the approach shot has to be properly hit to get it all the way back to the flag.

Blaukovitch also added two good par-5's on the front -- unfortunately both are downhill and go in the same direction.

The back nine is the more wooded of the two sides and I really liked the par-4 11th at 453 yards and the follow-up hole -- the 12th at 589 yards. The former plays downhill and there is a pond that protects the putting surface. An above average hole but it's the 12th that really steals the show. The fairway begins to get narrowed and narrower the deeper you play down the hole. You can hit the driver and try to reach the further right edge to go for the green but it takes total length and control to pull it off. The slightest pull left is deader than Elvis.

One of the really neat closing holes in public golf in Pennsy is at Stone Hedge. The 434-yard par-4 plays slightly uphill and usually into any wind. You need to play close down the right side for the better angle but there are a series of bunkers to contend with.

The only real weak area of Stone Hedge is that you don't get the kind of putting surface detailing that other contemporaries like Mike DeVries or Gil Hanse, etc, etc, would normally provide. A Blaukovitch green is fairly basic in its appearance and demands -- it would be interesting to see if a few of them could be tweaked to better defend their respective positions on any number of the holes there.

Stone Hedge is likely no more than a 4 on the Doak scale but with the right amount of tweaking and attention to greater detail around the greens it could be something for people to visit when in the greater Scranton area.

Andy:

In refreshing my memory of Glenbrook the 4th at 440 yards is a solid hole because of the way the tree line on the left cuts close to the playing area off the tee.

You mentioned the 3rd and I do like it -- likely not as much as you. The hole does dog-leg slightly to the left and the player must decide how much to cut-off. The green site is also quite good -- just not as good as the par-3 1st.

The par-3 7th -- my favorite tee-pee type green is really the kind of quirk that some will embrace enthusiastically and others will shake their head and wonder. I fall in the latter category.

Andy -- Glenbrook contains too many parallel fairways for my liking. The routing is quite ordinary and the yield of superior holes is quite limited. Like I said an average course but when you measure Glenbrook against the other fast food options of golf in the immediate area the stock of Glenbrook seems like Oakmont in comparison.

[Andy Hughes]

Matt
Whoa Nellie!!  You insist, I sense, in trying to put me in the position of defending courses such as Mt Airy and CC of the Poconos (which I have never played) and putting down courses
such as Morgan Hill and Great Bear (which I have never played either).  The thought of Marshall's Creek having a good course is amazing to me, but I still have no reason to doubt your assessment of any of those four courses.  I have always had fun at courses like Pocono Manor, or Water Gap or Shawnee, but I can understand others' preferring to play elsewhere.  Clearly, you are in that camp.  But when you casually lump Glenbrook in with the rest, I believe you have made a mistake.

You have granted 1 as a good hole. I look forward to your response to my assessment of 3.
Now for the rest of the front nine at Glenbrook.
2:  ok, I'll perhaps grant you some weakness here Matt.  I don't recall the yardage, but it is a short par 4 without a lot to redeem it.
3. A fine hole, my views of it listed a few comments ago. I see you mentioned this hole above.  I do agree that the green is not nearly as good as the first's.  If memory serves,
it is pretty flat.  But the way the green is raised above its surrounds I believe is its saving grace.
4. A fine par 4. Yardage around 420 maybe? (its been many years, and my memory of distances may be off).  Tee shot is very demanding, with some bailout room left. But if you bail left,
you are either blocked out by the big hill, or actually on the hill with long grass and trees.  A tee shot too far right finds the woods. And the decision must be made on the tee--do I hit driver and reach the narrowest portion, or hit less club and play to the wider portion of fairway? Once in the fairway, the approach is to a smallish green, and it is no picnic missing it left OR right.
5. Neat par 5. Or maybe too much quirk Matt? I am not sure where you are with quirk. Shorter, reachable for a par 5. Drive towards the creek.  The closer you can play your tee shot to the trees on the right, the better your angle into the green.  But play safe to the left and you will be blocked out by the small grove of trees that divide 5 and 6 at the creek.  And the second shot!  Blind, as the far bank is well above you. Out of bounds cuts in on the right, fairly close to the green. Miss left, and find the deep bunker well below the green. Blast then needs to be hit directly towards the road right of the green.  3 or 7 can be had here, which I think is a good thing.
6. Humdrum tee shot, but testing approach to a slightly raised green surrounded left, right and front by bunkers. Shots from the front bunker must deal with a severe overhang.
7. Well, unusual hole  I personally find the hole appealing and unusual, though I may not like the hole for a big dollar stroke play tournament.  On the plus side, it is with a wedge or 9 iron or so, though I grant the shot better be darn good. Also, a bigger green would make the shot more do-able and offer more variety of pins. While we are on opposite sides of the divide on this one, I wonder if you dislike the 2 or 20 Hole as well?  I did see someone hit it into the trees once on the right, bounce out onto the green and make an ace!
8. Another shortish par 5. I personally find reachable par 5s that also offer the chance to make a 3 or 8 appealing.  Drive leaves the choice--stay on the flat portion or try to bust it past the ledge and  have to deal with an uneven lie.  Going for the green in two? The option to land well short and run it up exists, but it better be up the left side, or it will run into the very deep pit right of the green. But too far left and it will be in the trees.  
Too far right, run down the hill. Another good chance for 3 or 7.
9. Short par 4, maybe 365?  From the back tee, much of the fairway can't be seen. OB road runs up the right side, again ending up close to the green.  With a very large fairway left,
tee shot needs to be drawn, or less club must be used.  Drive over gunge and the unseen pond short left.   Approach is not the most exciting.
Only parallel holes on this side are 5 and 6, though I don't see that as an issue as there doesn't seem to be any shared area. I find almost all of the holes, and most of the required shots, to be interesting and challenging. I wonder where on the front side we disagree?

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