In Praise of Fazio

[George Pazin]

Just goes to show you the difference in perceptions people have. I'd say it's the defenders that attempt to shout down pointed criticism with cries of bias and bashing.

I just did a quick search on SC and can indeed confirm that no one has ever said a single word about the golf course at SC. I'm not sure there even is a golf course there, but I can confirm that a marvel of engineering does exist there. Did you do everything you can to see the completely constructed marvel of engineering at Texas Tech?

[THuckaby2]

George, to each his own.  Just do read the section in Confidential Guide to which David refers you.  As for what happens on here, rest assured that at least to me, it's not worth the fight.  All the rest you can interpret however you wish.

And in case you are talking to me about seeing courses, yes I did do everything I could to see what by all accounts is something pretty impressive out there in Lubbock.  Unfortunately real life got in the way.  I'm sure that never occurs with you and you've seen every course in the nation that you care to.

 

[George Pazin]

You are correct, sir - I've seen 'em all.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have a Confidential Guide handy? Mine's at home. I honestly don't even recall Tom D saying much about the actual holes at SC.

In all seriousness (you guys know I'm just teasing you on the other stuff), the most I recall reading about the holes came from Tommy after his visit.

Heck, I'd even like to see a little more meat from Mike H, since he saw fit to start the thread.

[DMoriarty]

I tire of seeing Fazio's name tossed about derisively on this site.  I guess that's my point.  Just because you're in love with the craftsmen doesn't mean you have to disrespect the tradesmen.

Mike,

Please point out where I have been disrespectful of Tom Fazio.  I'll gladly apologize if I have.  Preferably over a drink-- I'll even buy.

John, I really try to stay away from any list by Golf Digest.   As far as I am concerned, Golf Digest's ratings are an absolute farce.  Black Rock the best new private?  They owe the golfing public (private?) an apology.  

But since you asked, I glanced at their list online . . . I've played nine courses above Pacific Dunes, seven or eight of which shouldn't be.  

[JakaB]

Funny thing...neither Sand Hills or Shadow Creek are in the original 31 Flavors....the world is a changing all the time.   I would suggest someone with the time to start a new thead speculating how Doak's 31 flavors would change if published today.    God only knows that Pacific Dunes would take the place of Stonewall...another unoriginal flavor..

[THuckaby2]

George:

I sure do recall Doak talking about the golf course as you wish, and I know he gives his individual !!! ratings and the like to many holes.

But it really matters not.  No opinions are likely to be changed based on what's said here or what Doak says.


TH

[THuckaby2]

John:

Did either Sand Hills or Shadow Creek EXIST when the first CG was written?

Thank the golf gods the game is ever-changing.  Stagnancy would be pretty boring, don't you think?

TH

[jim_lewis]

I have played more than 50 of Fazio's courses and some are pretty darned good. A 6 on the Golfweek scale would place any course in the top 500 of the 12,000+ modern courses. However, I have never seen a Fazio course as good as Pacific Dunes. I think the same can be said of Dye, Nicklaus, Jones and all other living architects, except C&C.

There is no shame in falling short of Pacific Dunes. Just being mentioned in the same sentence is praise in itself.

[George Pazin]

But I thought we were all just mindless Tom Doak worshipping automotons that simply regurgitated whatever he spoon fed us? Of course, if he liked it, we all love it!

 

[THuckaby2]

But I thought we were all just mindless Tom Doak worshipping automotons that simply regurgitated whatever he spoon fed us? Of course, if he liked it, we all love it!

 

I never said that either.

You just asked for a course description, and David provided one.

I am pretty humorless about this today.  Sorry man.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Has Fazio done anything as great as Pacific Dunes on anyone's scale?  

David,

Forgive me.  I misinterpreted the highlighted words to mean "How could any right-minded individual through any conceivable criteria possibly rank a Fazio course as high as Tom Doak's domestic best?"  

I'm not sure I lumped you in with the Fazio bashers, who remind me of the professional rassler who introduces the brass knuckles into the match behind the ref's back, employs them effectively, then tucks them back into his tights before wildly waiving both hands in a "no way" type gesture when confronted by the ref.  

Back to my initial post.  I liked Seaside and Alderra immensely.  That is all.

Mike  

[JakaB]

John:

Did either Sand Hills or Shadow Creek EXIST when the first CG was written?

1988 was a long time ago....probably pre SH and SC..

[A_Clay_Man]

Surprised noone has even mentioned WWPB.

George, Part of the problem is, nobody really gets to golf SC enough to really study the golf course. Here's my first impression:
Part of SC's problems are that it is an engineering marvel.   A collection of 18, good to very good golf holes, all separated from eachother (that's the engineering) which all go North and South to avoid the in the face sun. For the most part, The holes all occupy a different 300-500 ft. wide half-pipe, framed with trees on the outside ridges. The trees give it that warm and comfy feeling, of golfing almost anywhere else in the country.

My favorite holes were the first Par 3, (a full gorge carry w/centerline bunker), the long two shotter on the back, with the pond right. And the hole with the deceptive bunkering, a short par four that looks longer because the bunkers all get smaller closer to the target. ANd when you turn around and look back at the hole from the green, you don't see a single bunker. Ala CPC #5.

[Brian Mariotti]

WH Cosgrove:
I, being a former member at Aldarra, would diasgree with your assessment of number #12. I believe that a great par 5 that you can actually see the green from the tee box, but have now chance in hell of reaching in two is great! Aladarra standouts for me are the two closing holes. 17 might be the best short par four I have ever played. 18 is a brute of a finishing hole that is just gorgeous. Great visuals from the tee box, and an extremely intimidating second shot over a ravine  that appears much closer to the green than it actually is. I have played some very good golf courses, and Aladarra is truly a one of them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

George,

I believe that I provided an opionion of Shadow Creek a few years ago.  Perhaps you can retrieve it.

I believe, on one of those threads, that Tom Doak also voiced his opinion (positive) on Shadow Creek as well.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

George,
Count me as one that thinks if Tom Doak allowed more then just one offering from any paticular architect, Shadow Creek wouldn't even come close to 92 flavors.

It is, for the most part, the most over-rated golf course of all-time, and if anyone wants to debate it, lets start at green contours, move to contaiment mounding and memorbility and go from there.

[cary lichtenstein]

I have to agree with Matt. I have played some excellent Fazio courses, Shadow Creek I believe is the best I have played an set the bar for "do it from nothing sites", which I think Pete Dye bested with Whistling Straits.

I also enjoyed Dallas National which is a recent Fazio and Pine Hill quite a bit

However, both Mirasol and red Sky were very disappointing, both different sites. Fazio did some greens on Mirasol that were sort of weird, can't find the right words to discribe them, and Red Sky is a mountain site, and I thought I was playing the same hole over and over again.

Perhaps he has too much work on his table, or he has lost a bit of his enthusiam??

[SPDB]

Please point out where I have been disrespectful of Tom Fazio.  I'll gladly apologize if I have.  Preferably over a drink-- I'll even buy.

Maybe I'm more sensitive than you are, but I consider false attribution and misrepresentation expressions of disrespect. (the Fazio Society thread)

[DMoriarty]

Maybe I'm more sensitive than you are, but I consider false attribution and misrepresentation expressions of disrespect. (the Fazio Society thread)

Sean, I can assure you that on the Fazio Society thread all my expressions of disrespect were directed not at Mr. Fazio, but squarely at you.  I neither falsely attributed nor misrepresented.  Your baseless disagreement does not transform my words into a misrepresentation or fals attribution.   Grow up.  

[Mike_Cirba]

In the same state you have Galloway National (superbly excellent, even with an awkward routing), and the disappointment of Pine Hill and Ridge at Back Brook (where the term "anti-strategy" was invented).

I'm looking forward to heading over to see what he came up with for Donald Trump later this year.

I'm coming to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a Tom Fazio course anymore.  Courses where he had a superb associate handling things, like Mike Strantz at World Woods Pine Barrens, generally turn out exemplary.  Courses that don't...don't.

The guy who used to talk about never doing more than six courses at a time now is Tom Fazio Inc., and the batting average is naturally suffering.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike,
Lets get something straight here mister, Southern California holds the rights to anti-strategy and where Fazio first found the School of Anti-Strategy.

An doe-in u's forget it!

[Mike Hendren]

redanman,

I am merely ignorant.  You, sir, are a blasphemer!

Reflecting on your comment that Fazio builds a good course every time, I was reminded of a recent poll on ESPN's Dan Patrick Show.  The question:  Would you rather win 6 bronze medals or one gold?   Perhaps the bronze medalist could "do better" if he focused on one event, but he's still a good athlete.  Make sense?

Mike

[Matt_Ward]

The aspect that's really troubling to me is that while I agree with Mike Cirba that Tom Fazio, Inc. has simply gone hog wild in developing courses -- many of which are simply add-ons for real estate purposes. Mike's listing of NJ as an example is a good one as the Garden State is home to Galloway National -- one of TF's very best IMHO -- but you also have the lesser types such as Pine Hill (devoid of any real detail minus the wonderful property and a few holes of note) and The Ridge at Back Brook (the home of MC's unique anti-strategy thesis).

However, there are a number of outstanding TF designs -- albeit a fraction of the total he has designed. There are some people who cling -- check that -- embrace like the mullahs across the pond -- this undying belief that TF is the second coming of the anti-Christ.

Many of these same people have usually played a very small sampling but constantly trumpet the ones they have played that are indeed poor and therefore cause to state loudly that TF is completely out to lunch when compared to their most favored architects.

Clearly, from the ones I have played over the years (by last count no less than 50) I am surprised that TF fails to deliver consistently the kind of work he is fully capable in doing. I have said many times over that Glen Wild -- just outside Park City, UT, is vastly underrated (although GD has it listed #1 in the Beehive State).

No doubt, a central focus on assessing the Tf portfolio comes down to quality control versus the desire to "pump out" the product. I don't doubt the batting average of "greatness" is far from being uniform but the desire to trash all of the man's product is really out-of-bounds given the number of courses (albeit a small number) I have personally played that say otherwise.