Paa Ko Ridge

[cary lichtenstein]

We played Paa Ko Ridge today and this should be a must play for everyone who has the opportunity. It is just outside Albuquerque, New Mexico, opened 4 years ago and has public access.

Thjis is a first rate course, from the moment they greet you at the bag drop, put 4 bottles of water in your cart, a 3 level range, first class golf carts, great luncheon food.

And , savings the best for last, 18 signature holes. Not one weak hole, groomed beautifully except for the traps which were a bit hard, which I like, but tough for my wife, great topgraphy, beautiful greens complexes, the perfect amount of containment for a mountain course.

Yes, a lot of drop shots but no repeats. No to walking, but we've been thru that discussion, excellent variety in traps, looks, greens.

I could play it everyday

[Bill_McBride]

I hope you're going to make it up to Black Mesa too, Cary.  That is a super course, great desert canyon course, more interesting than Paa Ko in my opinion although both are excellent.  

[Mike Nuzzo]

It's too bad you weren't able to join us last year for the Land of enchantment gathering.
I'm guessing you would have been a good fit.

Did you eat at the Shed or the Pink Adobe, in Santa Fe? or Clayman's house?

Those were strong highlights as well.

Cheers

[cary lichtenstein]

Bill:

We played Black Mesa twice. Excellent course

We play Twin Warriors tomorrow

We are supposed to go house tomorrow after golf, but there is no electricity in our area in Jupiter, Florida...so we are either going to stay a few days here in New Mexico or fly to LA and be with our daughter.

We missed Pinon Hills. It was the day before the hurricane hit in Florida, and we drove straight thru from Durango to Sante Fe and stayed on the phone tryiing to make arrangements for our housekeeper and dogs.

They stayed at my sons house, he went to Atlanta to avoid the storm, but at least his house had hurricane shutters, ours doesn't. There was another family there as well, they slept in my daughter in laws closet during the peak hours of the hurricance and our housekeeper, her sister and daughter who are visiting the US with the 2 dogs slept in my sons closet.

They said it sounded like a 747 for 10 hours.

[cary lichtenstein]

Mike:

We are simple eaters, wife likes salads and makes me eat them too. Me, I like a good steak, but never eat one in front  of her, too much grief to put up with

Call me on my cell @ 561-379-2020 if you want to get together. We play Twin Warriors tomorrow and will probably check in there tommorrow if their is no electricity in Jupiter

[Larry_Keltto]

If you can, stay at the Hyatt Tamaya -- a very unique property. Many here aren't real fond of Twin Warriors (perhaps it's the waterfall!), but I enjoyed it. Wish I was there right now.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

And , savings the best for last, 18 signature holes.

Cary, Cary, Cary,

I'm glad you and the wife are having a great time and I'm really glad you both are out of Florida and aren't in harms way. I'm also sure Papa KoKo Ridge is a great golf course but with that sentence, it just sent me looking for hot needles to stick in both my eyes and a pile of sharp old rusty barbed wire to sit on.

You of all people should no better to use the "s" word in this discussion group.............

[A_Clay_Man]

Tommy- If I'm not mistaken, Quassi used the 'S' term all on his own. I have never heard your fellow panelist, Warren Lehr,(GM@PKR) use such marketing jargon.

What is worthy of discussion is Cary's line about the perfect amount of containment for a mountain course.

Cary, What did you think of the fourth hole/green?

And, I wasn't aware anyone in this forum bad mouthing TW, save for the waterfall, which IMO isn't even noticable until you have to walk across it.  

Missing Black Mesa would be a real shame and if you wanna wait-out IVAN, Lubbock is not far.

[Doug Wright]

Thjis is a first rate course, from the moment they greet you at the bag drop, put 4 bottles of water in your cart, a 3 level range, first class golf carts, great luncheon food.
And , savings the best for last, 18 signature holes...perfect amount of containment for a mountain course.

Cary,

With all due respect, those are all the reasons I MUCH prefer Black Mesa to Paa Ko Ridge.

Hope your home survived the storm.

[Matt_Ward]

Cary:

I am a big time fan of Paa-Ko but IMHO it's clearly at least a full step behind IMHO from the totality presented at Black Mesa.

The weaknesses of Paa-Ko revolve around the par-3's. They are basically long holes and while that "shot value" is important -- it's done to excess with little appreciable difference between them -- although I do like the 8th with the superb background and the par-3 16th.

I am also not a fan of the Macy's department store (hello three levels!) 4th hole.

Doug touched a few other points but the strength of Black Mesa goes to its better diversity of holes -- the supreme routing effort that takes you into and around the site with a tour de force effort by Baxter Spann. You have to be able to drive the ball better on any number of holes at Black Mesa and be better positioned when approaching the putting surfaces.

One other thing -- containment mounding? My memory of Paa-Ko is quite good -- where is the containment mounding you are talking about? I know Rees Jones has done such things on a number of his designs but Ken Dye didn't insert such an item at Paa-Ko if memory serves. To put Paa-Ko in some sort of perspective -- as a ponderosa pine type course -- I think it's far better than Forest Highlands (Canyon) and Sanctuary in Sedalia, CO -- both of which have their proponents.

[cary lichtenstein]

Sorry, but at 61 years old, I can't remember the specific holes and/or areas that had containment mounding, but I can assure you that this was discussed numerous times during the round.

As far as Black Mesa v. Paa Ko Ridge goes, which is better, etc., it is much easier to say that they are both wonderful courses, I would say they are must plays for everybody and it is unfair to compare them for the following reasons:

1. Different handicap players will like different courses,e.g., we played with different players each day, and all liked Paa Ko Ridge better. To be fair, they were not skilled players and my sampling was tiny. The better player may appreciate Black Mesa more.

2. The conditions at Black Mesa threw my wife, and if any of you are immune to hearing about dust and dirt for 18 holes for 2 days, you are better man than me.  

3. Black Mesa is immature compared to Paa Ko. It is a new course and lots of the roughs and edges need to grow in.

4. Neither course has a weak hole. Black Mesa has more forced carries which both my wife and I like.

5. Both courses are "fun" courses, perhaps Black Mesa more so

6. The more I write, the more I realize how good they both were. I rated them nearly the same.

Played Twin Warriors today...the last course and

Now my electricity is back on in Jupiter and I can go home.

This was a delightful trip, and if anybody needs any help with a similiar trip in the future, please feel free to contact me.

Thanks to everybody who gave me advise on courses to play, we did miss 2 courses, Pinon Hills and The Hideout thanks to Hurricane Francis.

[George Pazin]

Gee, it almost sounds like someone said Black Mesa is not an ideal course for high handicappers....

I don't remember any containment mounding at Paa Ko, but maybe I was just distracted huffing and puffing on the walk.

To be honest, the walker in me gives big thumbs up to Messrs. Spann and Dye for building walkable courses in difficult environments. The primary difficulties in walking PKR and BM lies in the terrain, not the green to tee walks. They're not east walks, but they are definitely walkable.

I enjoyed both courses, but would prefer Black Mesa. Just a bit more shot variety, stance uncertainty and green interest.

-----
Glad to see that Francis wasn't nearly as terrible as everyone feared. Hope your return trip home is pleasurable, Cary. Thanks for updating everyone on your trip - wish more would follow your lead.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The consensus of my group of 8(no single digit handicappers) during our April trip was that PaaKo was more enjoyable than Black Mesa.For that matter, the group had a better experience atTwin Warriors. A nice sunny day will do that. If you recall from my post about my NM trip, we had a bad weather day at Black Mesa plus the grass hadn't started growing yet in the mountains. Personally, BM was difficult to judge on a one time experience. I enjoyed the quirkiness of some holes but ,frankly, the bad weather took away from the golfing experience. The conditions should be better in summer. But, as Cary has noted, this course needs more time. I don't think it should ever be in Augusta National conditions. That is the allure of this place. I look forward to a return visit.

Steve

[Matt_Ward]

What's so funny about this thread is that some people bitch and moan about a course not being "finished" or being a bit "rough" and then they embrace all the creature comforts of modern golf. Who really gives a rats ass that Black Mesa doesn't have finished cart paths?

Hello?

The secret charm of Black Mesa is that it's not suppose to be a replica of the "tried and true" (and also boring and waste of time) model of the country club course.

Black Mesa is a wild ride -- it's supposed to reflect the location it occupies and not be some sort of slick and cosmetic applied layout. The diversity of holes and the supreme routing effort by Baxter Spann takes you into a golf adventure few modern courses can even remotely come half way in matching IMHO. I would urge people to read the comments made by Ron Whitten on golfdigest.com -- a self-identified mid-to-high handicapper -- on his thoughts on Black Mesa.

Steve is quite fair in saying he only saw Black Mesa one time and caught it after a grueling winter season. I have had the pleasure in being on site no less than three times and the course has never failed to disappoint. For Steve -- I say a return visit during a more opportune time frame is a must.

I am a big fan of both layouts and for too long the disdain shown to such remote courses like New Mexico is proof positive that a few people here on GCA need to stay put in their country club environment wherever that may be. Somehow in my gut I just believe that if the names of the architects involved with Paa-Ko and Black Mesa had been others of the "chosen ilk" the overall feelings and "buzz" of both layouts would have been far different.  

Cary:

Can you please outline specifically the "containment mounding" you refer to at Paa-Ko? The only hole that remotely has such a role is the downhill par-5 15th hole. Even still -- the tee shot that is wild will not be 100% contained.

Thanks ...

[A_Clay_Man]

Matt- I'm not gonna speak for Cary, especially since his initial comments could've been completely tounge-in-cheek. But, almost every green has some form of containment. Whether it was scooped-out, or had rings of soil mounds poured around it, the complexes each have some form of containment.

My personal preference is the natural kind, found on the right of number 4.  

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

With all due respect -- the notion of "containment mounding" has more to do with the fairways and what you face when playing from the tees.

Paa-Ko is really free of the "Rees" type style you often found on a number of his designs.

Regarding your point -- many of the greens at Paa-Ko are indeed built up but they will not prevent wild shots from bounding into some unique territory.