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ForkaB

Re:Merion East today
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2004, 04:32:53 AM »
TEP

Have they added any length since you, Mike, Willie and I played there in 2001?  Surely not to 18, which was at the property line then and surely played about 495 (240-250 carry over the quarry).  I remember walking back 20-50 yardds on a lot of other holes too.  Are we just talking aout old news here (at least in terms of added length)?

TEPaul

Re:Merion East today
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2004, 05:09:01 AM »
Rich and Mike:

Oh no, the back tees are not all the same that you saw in 2001 (has it been that long ago?). There's a good deal more on some holes now. But this should pretty much max the course out (unless they buy that property behind #12 tee! ;) ).

The "new" back tee on #5 at 475 isn't there any longer and the "new/new" one is 25 yards behind where it was at 500+. #18 "new" back tee apparently was redone too and positioned a bit farther back with a lot of reworked earth-work around and behind it where that maintenance road is. They all seem to sit in there well though and look good other than #15 where you don't have a view of the front of the fairway anymore from the very back but to the US Am players that's not where they'll be looking anyway.

What Mike Cirba said there in his post I've been saying for years (and Nick Faldo who only saw the course one time) cleverly observed about Merion East---eg it's not the type of course one can just look at the total card yardage on and get a sense of what it plays like. The so-called "three stretches" are pretty unique in a routing sense and in how they get into any player's head in a whole round context!

My hope for the US Am is that they don't go too overboard with the greens and their speed. I'd just hope they put a little less speed on them than they might tend to want to and compsenate with a little more firmness throughout, weather permitting. I think that'd really test those players mentally while at the same time really reward those who play both thoughtful and really execute their shots, and that definitely means on and around the green-ends. I'd love to see the very best performances rewarded with good scores.

Personally, I hope they play the Am around 11 on the stimp on those greens but that's just a reference I use, I guess, and Matt Shaeffer says he really doesn't even use a stimpmeter at Merion East (a very good thing!)---he just sort of feels the conditions.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2004, 05:10:53 AM by TEPaul »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East today
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2004, 09:17:30 AM »
Mike Cirba:

I believe you might be right about Merion's "back 5" from the tips as the most difficult anywhere (even Carnoustie).

#14 = 485 uphill
#15 = 440
#16 = 430
#17 = 245
#18 = 490 uphill carry first 275 yards

As an aside, since no length was added to #16, the (still) daunting Quarry Hole is now the easiest hole during that stretch!

Brian_Gracely

Re:Merion East today
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2004, 09:24:50 AM »

#18 = 490 uphill carry first 275 yards


During the Hugh Wilson, what percentage of players was able to carry the quarry from the 490yd tees?  

TEPaul

Re:Merion East today
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2004, 09:33:09 AM »
The carry out of the quarry from even the new tips is actually right around 240-245 but with the uphill from the tees to the top of the quarry (rough before the fairway) it probably plays like about 255-260 but if there's wind in your face it can play like whatever.

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East today
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2004, 11:45:51 AM »
TEP,

Do you think the green on #17 is sloped/undulated too severely for what is now a 245 yd par 3?  I realize that it plays downhill, but I am curious to get your thoughts about whether the contours of the green are appropriate for its current length.

TEPaul

Re:Merion East today
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2004, 12:54:45 PM »
Geoffrey:

You know that's a very fine question! That's one of the real reasons I can't wait to see the US Amateur match play to see how that quality of golfer in general handles and comes through a hole like that. It's going to be over par throughout everything, I just wonder by how much.

The green is very interesting all around. It has a masive dip or swale or slope in the front of it they say was Hugh Wilson's interpretation of the "Valley of Sin".

I don't believe the pin has ever been or could be down in there or how much green space they've ever had down there. The hole has a short sunken fairway in there that's not visible from the tee but everyone knows it's there.

If even a good player wanted to play safe on that hole he might just put the tee shot down there with quite a bit less club and take his chances on putting or chipping up the massive slope in the green front but that play won't be at all easy to gauge with the green speeds and the contour on that green. But a play like that would almost ensure an easy bogie or a scrambling par.

If you go for the pinnable section of the green on top and miss it left to a left pin or right to a right pin you're taking some changes of sometimes making even worse than a bogie.

And to birdie that hole I figure you have to hit a shot that's not just good but probably very lucky too---not to mention its' from 240!. There's a most interesting sort of diagonal hogs back across the left back of that green that makes recover and/or putting on that green pretty dicey sometimes!

I figure the US Am guys could be hitting as little as a 4 iron to some kind of utility wood or may as much as a 3 wood!

Geoffrey_Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East today
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2004, 02:17:00 PM »
TEP,

The last time I played the hole from the back tees (pre - renovation) the pin was back right and I hit a five wood into the middle of the green.  I misjudged just how downhill the putt was coming off of that hog's back that you mentioned and I was lucky to make a 8 footer for par coming back.

I walked off the 17th thinking that the green was almost too severe for the length of the hole but I now realize the only reason why I thought that way is because its labelled a par 3.  If I am trying to battle Old Man Par it doesn't seem like a fair test, but take the par out of the equation (as it is in match play) and it doesn't seem to be an unfair test anymore.

Given the options you listed, it would not surprise me at all to see guys hit to a yardage just over that front slope, with the thought that the best place to miss it is short.  I would almost take the same route that Billy Casper used to play the long par 3's at Winged Foot sucessfully in an Open there - he "layed up" every day and tried to get up and down for par.  That strategy is more in line with the true par for this hole which is somewhere between 3 1/2 to 4.  I'd much rather have a chip shot that I can spin close, than test that back tier and miss either left (which is dead in my opinion) or right.

Do you think we will see any guys try to chip the ball from that front tier to a back pin instead of putting it?  Might be easier to judge by taking the huge swale out of play...
« Last Edit: August 28, 2004, 02:20:06 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

TEPaul

Re:Merion East today
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2004, 02:48:34 PM »
Geoffrey:

The 17th at Merion is just one tough hole, always has been and nothing has changed--except it's gotten a bit more challenging but maybe it's just evened out because of technology. If any golfer, no matter how good he is, playing the length of Merion manages to get from #14 tee through the 18th green one over par in real tournament conditions he should be happy enough and if he gets through that stretch even or better he should be elated. Of course US Am Championship types want to make par there but if they happen to make no worse than bogie they should get outta town and on to the next tee without worrying about it and try concentrate immediately on trying to hit one of their better drives to survive on #18. And if they've done that they should also think to watch what's coming off #17 tee from the next group as they walk from #18 tee so they don't get hurt before they can have a chance to survive the final 18th hole challenge.

By the way, the only Tour pro I really watched on #17 up close was Faldo and he hit beautiful 2 iron pretty close from the old tips of 220. Nicklaus hit a bunch of beautiful high, slighly faded 2 irons there from the old tips, by the way, so I'm told by those who saw him
« Last Edit: August 28, 2004, 02:50:59 PM by TEPaul »

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion East today
« Reply #34 on: August 29, 2004, 08:30:02 PM »
Tom Paul et al:

Merion tried to make the "pre-Valley of Sin" area on #17 part of the green for 2-3 years around 1997.  It was about a 190 yard downhill carry from the "old" tips to there.

It was a noble experiment but abandoned as it was decided that there was only 1 single viable pin position down there (pretty much true) and that recontouring the ground to make it do-able wouldn't really create an equally good (alternate) hole.  Hard to argue too strenuously with that.

TEPaul

Re:Merion East today
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2004, 10:28:07 PM »
Chip Oat said:

"Tom Paul et al:
Merion tried to make the "pre-Valley of Sin" area on #17 part of the green for 2-3 years around 1997.  It was about a 190 yard downhill carry from the "old" tips to there.
It was a noble experiment but abandoned as it was decided that there was only 1 single viable pin position down there (pretty much true) and that recontouring the ground to make it do-able wouldn't really create an equally good (alternate) hole.  Hard to argue too strenuously with that."

Chip:

I truly thank you for that bit of information! I always wondered about that; I asked a few times, and no one seemed to know!

In a certain sense that would make that greenspace something like the front green section on some biarritzes today (some of which has been restored recently), only perhaps even more interesting in the case of #17 Merion.

Frankly, I disagree with what you say about pinnability being an issue if that lower level on #17 was reconstituted to greenspace. Even if there was only space for one pin position--so what? They could put it down there for one day once a week or even one day once a month. What would be the problem with that if there was only a single pin position?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2004, 10:31:05 PM by TEPaul »

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