Is 17 at Sawgrass a Short Hole template?

[Anthony Gray]

  ?

[Eric Smith]

If you close one eye (or wear an eye patch) you can pretend its a cape.

[Jeff_Mingay]

If you can, it's interesting to think about this hole without the water - if it wasn't an island green. Think about it... it's a really excellent short hole, with a very interesting green.

[Joe Stansell]

I have to guess that the 17th served as the starting point for creating the famous floating green at the CDA Resort. There's also hole 15 at LakeRidge in Reno, Nevada. And also there's the "Apple Island Green" at the Apple Tree Resort in Yakima, WA. 

[Sam Morrow]

But 17 wasn't even the first island green in the area.

[DMoriarty]

Depends upon how one defines "short hole template."

CBM's "short hole" was nearly surrounded by water at Mid Ocean, was it not?

[Tony Ristola]

It serves its purpose for the pro's fine, and as a one off novelty...OK. But a template...Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

The hole is unplayable by the masses. The TPC is really a 17-hole golf course.
They get what? Some 50,000 rounds a year, and fish out 150,000 balls. Even at 70-yards for the ladies and going at the green from the left (long angle), it's brutal with their flatter ball flight and lack of spin.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Substitute water for sand and the 17th at Sawgrass would look similar to the 5th at Brancaster, a 'Short' hole........



.........and the one that CBM used as a model for his creations, he liked it 'better' than the 8th at TOC:




A newer photo of  Mid Ocean Club's 'Short' shows a green that's surrounded 1/2 by water, 1/2 by sand.




I'd say that the 17th at Sawgrass is a modern 'template' (or icon) in the same way as the 12th at ANGC, but they both have their roots firmly planted in the past.

[Scott Warren]

Brian and Tony: I believe Anthony and David are both referring to the "short" template hole often utilised by Macdonald and Raynor, not suggesting 17 at Sawgrass is a template itself.

[Bill_McBride]

It serves its purpose for the pro's fine, and as a one off novelty...OK. But a template...Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

The hole is unplayable by the masses. The TPC is really a 17-hole golf course.
They get what? Some 50,000 rounds a year, and fish out 150,000 balls. Even at 70-yards for the ladies and going at the green from the left (long angle), it's brutal with their flatter ball flight and lack of spin.

The hole is much easier from the tee the masses play.  It's about 110 yards, and the line to the center of the green is dead into a fairly good slope that's 90^o to the shot.

By contrast the pros play from 139 yards across that slope, with the tee way off to the right. 

Shouldn't most golfers be able to hit a ball in the air for 100 yards?  At least the men?   I realize there's an intimidation factor.   

[Carl Rogers]

The 17th at Sawgrass reminds me of Pete Townsend smashing his guitar over his amplifier .... shockingly interesting once ... ok the second time  around & but very cliche after that.

[DMoriarty]

I can't see how it's a matter for debate? It's a fact. Loads of holes were designed with it as an inspiration - the 17th at the Earth course in Dubai springs to mind as does the floating green at that European tour stop  - 17 at Druid's glen is another one.

David, CBM? Come off it.

Bryan, as Scott indicated, I thought Anthony was asking about the traditional CBM "short."   I agree that the 17th seems to have been a template for Dye, at least if PGA West Stadium is any indication.

As I said, it all depends upon how we want to define "template."
 

[Rick Shefchik]

Most of the Raynor "short" holes I'm familiar with are/were very short -- around 110 yards, surrounded by sand. No place to miss, but you really shouldn't miss. Sawgrass #17 is a little longer, and obviously more penal, but seems to me it's the same idea.

[Mark Johnson]

for me, its 7th at Pebble...

[Adrian_Stiff]

Yes the 17th at Sawgrass is a template. Its been reproduced lots of times and despie this site nayers is extremeley popular. Of course if the version Pete Dye did at Sawgrass was not the first one, so the naming should probably come from the the first one.

[Jim_Kennedy]

17 is an island green, and possibly the first of its kind. Correct me if I'm wrong, but earlier versions that have been mentioned on this and other threads are all greens on an island, i.e., they all had room to miss. Even the "Short", encircled with bunkers, allows room for error. In that respect the unforgiving nature of Dye's hole makes it unique.



  

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Anthony, good question.  I have thought about it and discussed with a few GCA guys (ahem, the Philadelphia group) and I feel it may not be a template per se in the Macdonald sense-meaning, 100% true to the design as part of his '18 ideal golf holes'-but, the shot requirement is similar to the original short.

In some ways, this is an interesting twist on the original, although obviously more penal; missing the green (water)  here is in most cases going to lead to a double-whereas, missing the green at a 'traditional design' short hole (meaning, green encircled by sand or by grass and bunkers), the player can work and make a 2,3, or 4. 

Bill McBride, I agree with you, on principle, even though I don't always execute   It's not too much to ask the golfer to hit a ball in the air for 100 yards, accurately, with wedge or short iron.