The Redan that never existed and other fantasies of GolfClubAtlas...

[JakaB]

Thanks to the very same numbnuts that went on and on about the conditions of Shinnecock being too firm and too fast...who now say Whistling Straits is too soft...we are looking at another tournament of target golf.   Thanks to the very same people who call every course with a view of a lake links golf we now have another architectural standard set so low that very few true links courses will ever be built in this country.   Thanks to every par three with the slightest side slope being called a redan we may never see another true ball busting redan ever built again.   It's to late to fix what was done after the US Open...people who love the game will pay for those mistakes for years with soft ass courses....but it is still not to late to muzzle the idiocy that spews from Golfclubatlas every major tournament...so please...for the good of the game...just shut up about anything that attempts to tie in architecture to tournament golf.  

[RJ_Daley]

I think you are confusing set-up and maintenance with architecture, John.  In the case of Whistling Straits, the faux links ground features are all there.  There are plenty of graded humps heaves and rolls in fairways and foregreens.  The green surrounds have pits to rival any links course, and perhaps because they are manufactured and strategically placed, they are even tougher than a randomness and less frequency than found on natural links.  

It is the maintenance meld that these tournament time criticisms ussual entail, not so much the architecture-design.

[JakaB]

Dick,

I never heard one person who complained about the set up at Shinnecock say it wasn't exciting...they all said it didn't let the "architecture shine through" ... so what do we have now...soft after soft after soft....and where will this lead us...trees and more rough and more length...thanks Golfclubatlas....you did it again.   So where is the redan at WS...and tell me....is it an Irish or a Scottish links..

[JakaB]

Shivas,

Is it a design flaw...a poor set up....unfortunate seasonal conditions....a knee jerk reaction to what was seen as a mistake at Shinnecock which lead to over watering leading up to the tournament...a mis-perception by the media and the people of GCA about if this is a links course or what a links course is...or what.   Or is there not a problem at all and the course is playing as intended.....that can't be it...there has to be a problem...so what is it..

[RJ_Daley]

John, where were critics saying that the design of Shinnecock was absent?  As you say, it was curtailed from shining through.  The architecture is unquestionably there.  Shinnecock lost it, if you subscribe to those points of view, because of excessive obsession for speed on the greens, not lack of links design features.  Mowing and grooming to a fair thee well at #7 Shinny was the only widespread criticism and most effected the otherwise great contour of that green.  Then there is the debate of width which is another maintenance meld question, not design.

The redanlike hole is #3 at WS.

Why do you think GCA as a whole promotes more easy designs?  All we talk about is the neat features on courses.  I don't even see where the group think around here promotes softness, quite the contrary...

[Mike Hendren]

John,

It's a design flaw if one considers the selection of bent grass a design issue.  It's wholly inconsistent with the gracious run-up corridors on the golf course.  

Like the shaved surrounds at Rustic Canyon (the opposite side of the same coin IMHO) it's an artificial and unnecessary feature.  

Nonethless, I think WS is a marvelous golf course (notwithstanding the fact that the 18th might be the worse finishing hole in the history of major championships) and the cloudless, cool day I played there several years back was among my most favorite days on a golf course - a real soul stirrer.

So what if it's not a links?

Mike

"Us linksters drink Lite Beer from Miller."
-Bubba Smith

 

[Michael Dugger]

Johh, Barney, jakab.....whomever

Are not you a day late and a dollar short with this?  Really?

People have been bitching about the set-up for ages, not just at Shinne this year.

Monte Doubtfire hates Augusta because they boo him and he can't keep a ball to stay on the 15th green.  Tell me that green is not ridiculous sometimes???

Few years back at Congressional they hooted and hollered about the fairways being too narrow.  Nearly drove John Daly to insanity.  Remember the shakes?

Bethpage was too long.  Too hard.  
Pebble was too hard for everyone but Tiger that year.  Too much wind.
Hazeltine was suppose to be too long, too hard.

"They" will always snivel.....it wasn't just at Shinne this year.  It is every year.

[JakaB]

Mdug,

It's not about what the pros think...its about the attempt to put architectural labels on everything....it's a Scottish Links..no it's an Irish Links...the third hole is a redan....the par five hole at The Legends isn't a biarritz because Shivas says so...the greens are too soft...the greens are too fast...the approaches are the wrong grass...the bunkers are too perfect...the bunkers are deeper than in 1931...the greens are crowned because of maintenance...the bunkers are gone...the pond is stupid...the trees grew...the rough is too high....there is not enough width...the tees are square...the course is too long...the wind will not blow....no matter what it is it just ain't right which is fine.....but the damage that was done by the people on this site and the media about the conditions at Shinnecock will take years and wet tournaments to undoo......I don't know what exactly it is going to be yet...but I can only hope this board and the Golfchannel don't furter contribute to the demise of fun golfing through over analysis.....just wait till next Monday and you will know exactly what I'm talking about.   It is already started on the other threads..

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Some interesting comments on the golf channel last evening.  I only wish I knew who made them....but the comment was that the fairways are fescue and the approaches are bent.  The fairways are apparently fairly firm but the approaches are soft, preventing the ball from continuing to run up through the approach.  

Firstly I thought that this was a pretty astute observation and secondly it was pretty astonishing that any golf analyst would bring that point up.  (It may have Steve Flesch that made the comment, which of course means it wasn't an "anylyst at all

Whistling Straights may simply have a small design flaw that could be easily corrected.  I would love to hear some thoughts by architects and superintendents about how the transition from one grass to another would be done and describe what some of the issues are.

[Michael Dugger]

Mdug,

It's not about what the pros think...its about the attempt to put architectural labels on everything....it's a Scottish Links..no it's an Irish Links...the third hole is a redan....the par five hole at The Legends isn't a biarritz because Shivas says so...the greens are too soft...the greens are too fast...the approaches are the wrong grass...the bunkers are too perfect...the bunkers are deeper than in 1931...the greens are crowned because of maintenance...the bunkers are gone...the pond is stupid...the trees grew...the rough is too high....there is not enough width...the tees are square...the course is too long...the wind will not blow....no matter what it is it just ain't right which is fine.....but the damage that was done by the people on this site and the media about the conditions at Shinnecock will take years and wet tournaments to undoo......I don't know what exactly it is going to be yet...but I can only hope this board and the Golfchannel don't furter contribute to the demise of fun golfing through over analysis.....just wait till next Monday and you will know exactly what I'm talking about.   It is already started on the other threads..

John,

It seems to me that if you have a problem with discussing the things mentioned above you rule out the possibility of any discussion at all!

You know it is simply someone else's opinion.  I know that it is heresy and conjecture.  Some is good, some not so good.

But so what......it is the same with your "opinion" that we ought to shut up about it!!!

As I see it, the problem is that you are apparently incapable to rational, entertaining and thought provoking give and takes....

makes me wonder.....and I'm not the only one to wonder this about you......why do you come to this website if you do not like "discussing?"  

[Mike Benham]

....unfortunate seasonal conditions....

Maybe that God guy (or gal) get pissed that they were holding a golf tournament in August in Wisconsin while the Packers started their pre-season camp ... doesn't everyone realize that it is now football season up there ...

[JakaB]

Mdug,

Do you see the damage to the game by the constant search for redan holes by the people on this site.....Don't you think the game would be better served if a hole was just a hole or a course was just a course.....this pigeon holing of ancient architectural features onto modern designs is killing creativity...not to mention boring as hell.

[Dan Kelly]

Do you see the damage to the game by the constant search for redan holes by the people on this site.

Honestly, I don't. I don't think the people on this site are doing any damage to anything -- other than to, possibly, themselves (and, at times, others).

Don't you think the game would be better served if a hole was just a hole or a course was just a course.

No. How would we talk about those holes, and those courses? Or is that really your goal -- that we stop talking about golf? (That might be a good goal. Who's to know?)

this pigeon holing of ancient architectural features onto modern designs is killing creativity...not to mention boring as hell.

Which "creativity" are you talking about?

Which "ancient architectural features" are "boring as hell"?

Seems to me they're ancient precisely because they're *not* boring as hell (the way cliches become cliches because they so perfectly express something) -- and that's what boring as hell are courses where those ancient architectural features are either ignored or misinterpreted.

[Michael Dugger]

John,

I think it is fair to say that CBMac's reverence for the classic holes of British golf turned out to be a pretty good thing at NGLA.  He was creative in the process too.  He used "elements" of those holes to craft his version of Redan, Cape, Road, etc....and many "experts" think they are better holes than the originals.

I understand what you are saying.  I do.  But we ought not to totally discount classifying things because it is essential to discussion.  In other words, there must be a vernacular to get everyone on the same page.





 

[A_Clay_Man]

I don't see a problem with the meld. If these guys are so good, they should adapt. If thegreens are rocks and the aprons mush, that's tough but it's that way for everybody.

Lamenting the loss of the run-up option will only get a tear in my eye for a guy like Loren Roberts. But hey, we want to see the best golfer win and he will likely be the one who adapts either first, or best.

[JakaB]

As to what is dangerous in this instance specifically with Whistling Straits and this tournament is the constant referral to Links golf....this is a great course on a mediocure lake..it is not a Links course and the true Links courses of the world are going to suffer because of it.....at the end of the week Links will be redefined....future Links course will be built according to the new definition and thus the harm has occurred.

What is boring is not the courses but the discussion of features that don't exist by an accurate definition...take for instance the recently written history of Norwood Hills in St. Louis....Jim Healey is the author...a renowned expert and almost GCAer....just yesterday I'm reading through the book after my recent round and find that hole six and holes ten on the East course are both Redan-type holes...they are both very nice holes in themselves but they are not redans...it hurts me to see this type of misplaced reference...Does it hurt golf...I would say yes....It questions the validity of the true redans of the midwest....of which there are few and I have only played one....a nader at that.   It is just a dangerous easy way to describe a hole in ten words or less that dilutes the real thing when you see it....so it needs to be stopped.

[Dan Kelly]

So what you're really objecting to, John, is not the use of ancient architectural features, or the search for them, but the ignorance of those using ancient architectural terms (e.g., "links," "Redan") to describe modern creations reminiscent of, but not equivalent to, those ancient creations?

Well, I'm certainly with you there -- but I'd respectfully suggest that if you want to stand up against such ignorance, you should send your thoughts to CBS, the Golf Channel, and Golf Digest, rather than to the denizens of this so-called Treehouse (or, as you must have sometime been tempted to call it, Stupid Treehouse [tm]).

You out there, Jim Nance? Brian Hewitt? Ron Whitten?

[Tripp_Davis]

Just a quick note about course set up relative to design.  Every design considers how it will be set up and what typical or atyical environmental conditions may come up.  In a lot of cases, proper set is a must for the design to work as intended.  I would suggest that a Redan is certainly one hole that has a certain range of the set up for it to work as designed.  Too firm and it loses the design, as well as too soft.  That being said, one of the key difficulties with tournament play is to adjust to the conditions and just simply accept the fact that the goal is to tee it up and get it in the hole.  I still play a few amateur tournaments and I assure you one of the key things on your mind are the conditions as much as the design.  Every golf course will play differently from day to day and even from morning to afternoon and you have to accept what you have with each shot and adjust.  As my grandfather would say, "shut up and get the damn ball in the hole".  When a golf course a golf course setup gets such that the options of how you can play a shot are limited, accept it and think your way through it.  When a course set up gets to the point that you can't exectue (the options are gone and you simply have to keep babying the ball until you can get it in the hole and luck is the predominant factor), then you have a course that is over the top.  I talked to a number of guys who played the US Open and they said #7 got to the point that you could not execute.

[Michael Dugger]

John,

Ok, true.

However, I hear yokels around my driving range and practice tee refer to just about any old tract as a "links course".

"Let's hit the links"

"It's a Scottish Links course"

That crap has been thrown around incorrectly for about two decades.  I don't see where the upcoming PGA at Whistling Straits is going to change things.

Truth be told....what are the integral elements of "links" golf

I'd say

1. Fast and firm
2. Wind
3. Knarly bunkers  (blow outs or sod wall)


What else?  From my point of view WS is accomplishing #2 and #2.  Fast and firm......well maybe not.  Yet, does a burnt out tree lined course more closely meet your definition of a "links" because it is fast and firm.

I am thankful that Whistling Straits is a much closer rendition of links that a lot of crap we here about....like Sandpines.

[Kenny Lee Puckett]

Yeah, and while were at it, let's eliminate "Posh" from posh accomodations.

From 1888 until the end of WWII, the major method of Trans-Atlantic travel was the steamship/ocean liner.  Travel agents in the U.K. would sell "Posh Accomodations" as the premium way to make the voyage from the old world to New York.

P.O.S.H. stands for "Port Over, Starboard Home."  This booking was preferred amongst the monied class as they would not have to leave their berths and mingle with the hoi paloi to see the Statue of Liberty.  Upon reaching NY harbor, Lady Liberty would be on the left side of the ship, and vise versa going home.

Thus, how can a land-locked resort sell "Posh" accomodations?  Over the period of time, the meaning of the word evolved to mean first-rate.

Links golf by its very definition implies and imports a sea and not a lake.  Skilled renditions of links courses have been created in Charlotte, NC and Indiana of all places.  Its fun to see more fescue, and if conditions are optimal, more run and roll, but we all know that they are not true to the strict interpretation of the definition.

The bent grass approaches probably will be switched out before the 2007 Senior Open.  

Even Troon suffered from a wet spring/early summer.  Does the hand of God negating architectural design diminish our valuation of the course?  I certainly hope that Whistling Straits will be judged for its architectural character, and not conditions and things beyond control.

JWK

[RJ_Daley]

Barney, as near as I can tell, you don't like the use of vernacular, that generally describes a concept.  Redanlike, which is what I called #3 WS, is an angled to far left, guarded by sand hazard angling along left front, kickplated front right green that tends to channel balls back left if hit in the kickplate just right.  We have a certain vernacular hear on GCA where most people get a "general" mental image of that configuration.  Same with linkslike or faux links.  It seems to me those like and faux additions to the word links tells people you are informing them up front that there might be something not pure links in the make-up.  What are you, the word police?

So, from your annoyance of the long list you give us in reply #8, of our list of words to characterize design concepts we are describing, and phrases generally understood as conceptual by those participating in the discussion, maybe you'd like us to use hand signals instead!

I know Indiana qnd Illinois are generally flat or flatish.  I might say the folks there are from the flatlands.  I don't say they are from the flat earth society, however.  How would you describe the terrain in which you reside?

[Dan Kelly]

From Gary Van Sickle's "Underground Golfer," SI (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/gary_van_sickle/08/10/pga.preview/index.html):

"You've probably already read an avalanche of stories about Whistling Straits, the Pete Dye design on the shores of Lake Michigan, just outside Kohler, Wis. The course looks like a Scottish or British links smack in the middle of America's Dairyland."

Let him hear from you, John!

(While you're at it: You might observe that the course is about as far from the middle of America's Dairyland as it could get and still be in America's Dairyland.)

[RJ_Daley]

Dan, I fear that truth in advertising may require our prisoners to stamp a different slogan on our license plates.  It may have to read, "America's Dairyland like State".  I've heard we aren't the biggest dairy products producer anymore.  I know they ran an article not long ago that the last dairy farm in Oneida county had folded, and that is a very big county!  

So, John old friend, we have a lot of mischaracterizations going on.  We don't have true links land here in Wisconsin, nor are we truly America's dairy land, just cheesylike....

[Mike_Golden]

Guys,

Who gives a crap what Barney thinks about anything?

[JakaB]

Mike,

It's not about what I think..It's about what you guys aren't doing to improve the game.   I hold the people of this site to a higher standard and in that....why should we be so simple minded to call everything by a lake or firm and fast as a links experience...or every sideways slanted green a redan.  Is Sand Hills really a links....might be for the ignorant..but for us when we lump Sand Hills and Whistling Straits into the same catagorie we become as ignorant as those paid to stroke the egos of the everyday golfer...I can promise you...this site is not everyday...but..as it nears the commoness of the ordinary it becomes as boring as the battle of the bridges...I don't have time for that level of discussion and I don't think anyone else that cares about the game does either.....kinda like giving a crap don't you think.

This weekend my good gentilian friend warned me of a tiered green I was about to approach....I hit my typical running weak wedge and as my ball dissappeard from sight I took a peek at the green and said..."Why the hell didn't you tell me this was a biarritz.."  He was kind enough to tell me.."Because it's not.."...now thats giving a crap..it was fun having a friend who thinks instead of sterotyping every land form he sees....I still think it is a biarritz..but what do I know.   Why I tell this is because on further review of his postition I think he is right...I saw an undisputable biarritz the other day and it deserves better than to be lumped into with this other weak example....my friend made the game better that day for me..you should all be so lucky.