Master's Sunday: You couldn't script it??

[Dunlop_White]

Much of it is still in the greens, and pin locations mean everything!

On Saturday, many pins were strategically placed so that approaches would roll away from the hole....inacccessable ... as if they did not want anyone to run off and hide.

On Sunday, in contrast, many pins were accessable and strategically placed so that approaches would funnel down toward the hole...... (Hole 7, Hole 8, Hole 9, Hole 11, Hole 13, Hole 14, Hole 15, Hole 16, and Hole 18). Pins in collection areas set the stage for a shootout.

Of course, the players need to coorperate, and they did, but without these favorable pin locations, the eagles, the holes in one, and the shootout may not have occurred.

[Jeff_Mingay]

There were some great hole locations Sunday. If indeed they were cut in those spots to generate excitement, it was a great call by the tournament committee following a few comparatively uneventful Masters Tournament's recently.  

As you point out Dunlop, the contenders co-operated, playing some fantastic shots over the back nine. Els, Mickelson, Choi, and others make it look so much easier than it actually is, don't they! The way they envision shots then execute them, using the contour they way they do is amazing.

I could go on and on about how they shouldn't have done this, that and the other thing to the golf course in recent years. I still believe many of the changes were destructive and worthless in the long run. Despite that, yesterday at Augusta National was what the Masters has become known for and should always be. Exciting!

The roars heard across the golf course, even as they translated on the TV, sent shivers down my spine on several occasions. Awesome stuff.  

[JakaB]

John B. Kavanaugh
Full Member


Posts: 117



Starting over

  Re:Masters is ruined
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2004, 03:23:13 pm »      

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I just checked the weather forecast and we should be in for one of the most historically significant Masters of all time.  I will never understand you people on how you are able to say out of one side of your mouth that technology is out of whack to a point where even you and your friends hit 340 yd drives all day....and then AGNC has been lengthend to a point that charges are obsolete.  I think it comes from your desire to play a course once under a given set of conditions and move on in your all knowing way.  The last couple of years it has rained and rained during the tournament...but that is so easy to ignore from your cozy davenports....come on JK...really what was your motivation for such a rediculous premise as your title states...


Looks like it could be scripted...April 2nd if you may notice on the classic "Masters is ruined" thread.

[JakaB]

John B. Kavanaugh
Full Member


Posts: 118



Starting over

  Re:Do you lay-up at #13 or #15?
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2004, 02:55:08 pm »      

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I find it funny that the same group of guys that think the course has been changed to prevent back nine charges think they can reach each of the par 5's in two....lets see now...10 and 11 were never birdie holes..12 didn't change..13 is reachable by architectural critics....14 has not changed and we all know how to play the Sunday pin...15 is another eagle putt for 40 year old never beens...16 fits Hucks high fade to a tee....17 has a stupid tree that has been there for years....and now 18 is long enough to leave the famous Sandy Lyle bunker shot we all got.....I really want to know what besides buckets and buckets or rain is going to keep away the charges of old..when even you screwballs can reach 13 and 15.  
 
 
How about this script from April 7th....I like the Sandy Lyle reference...too bad Ernie missed the putt.

[Jfaspen]

The Competitions committee sure did a good job on keeping the course tough, but making good play possible on sunday.  I thought the hole locations on 15 and 16 were great.  15 provided the opportunity for an eagle without having to tempt the false front of that green.  16 proved its merit, but provided excitement just through accessibility.


Jeff

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

How many of these positions were different than the normal sunday pin placements. Most looked the same to me. Those were just great shots. #3 position was a killer like it always is on sunday.

[Dunlop_White]

The pins on Holes 8, 10, 11, 13, and 14 were different than normal Sunday pins.

[Carlyle Rood]

How many of these positions were different than the normal sunday pin placements. Most looked the same to me. Those were just great shots.

Correct.  I think the pins theory is being perpetuated by a lot of people too embarrassed to admit they were mistaken about the changes to the golf course.

[Gary_Smith]

How many of these positions were different than the normal sunday pin placements. Most looked the same to me. Those were just great shots.

Correct.  I think the pins theory is being perpetuated by a lot of people too embarrassed to admit they were mistaken about the changes to the golf course.

I think you're right.  

Where are all these guys who were wringing their hands about no more eagles and excitement at the Masters?  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Where are all these guys who were wringing their hands about no more eagles and excitement at the Masters?  

They are probably out measuring the distances of how far up the tees were moved for the final day.

[Dunlop_White]

Carlyle - There are alot of variables involved with scoring and scoring data: wind, rain, length, pin positions (etc.). Brad Owen, Marsh Benson, and the tournament committe had all these variables working on their behalf this week to create an ideal maintenance meld.

When Augusta plays firm and fast, amongst all the green undulations -- pin positions are very influencial on scoring. Why? Simply put, Saturday's tucked, run-away pins promoted conservative play. Conservative play produces more mean scores...less excitement.

Think back, countless birdie and eagle putts were attempted from approximately the same positions on both Saturday and Sunday -- from the collection areas in the greens. The only difference was the pins too were in these collection areas on Sunday.....and many were in fact different than their traditional Sunday positions.

The low scores and heroics were directly related to unusually accessable final round pin locations ..... just as the higher scores on the previous days had alot to do with inaccessable pins, regardless of length.

[Carlyle Rood]

The low scores and heroics were directly related to unusually accessable final round pin locations ..... just as the higher scores on the previous days had alot to do with inaccessable pins, regardless of length.

Nope.  Many of the pins were familiar Sunday hole locations.  The charges were reminiscent of the 1970s and 1980s because the changes to the course returned playing values from those eras.  In addition, the rough--or intermediate cut--also helped counteract the tremendous spin and trajectory afforded by new equipment and ball technology.

Look.  I wasn't fond of the changes.  I had my doubts.  Those doubts were reinforced with the peculiar weather the last two tournaments.  But now that I've had an opportunity to see the changes in person for three years, and now that I've enjoyed one of the most spectacular Masters Tournaments in my lifetime, I have to conclude/concede that the modifications directed by Augusta National, and implemented by Tom Fazio, have improved the tournament.

[johnk]

Before we get out of hand here, I think I agree with both Carlyle and Dunlop in some sense.  The pins on Sunday were somewhat more accessible than on Saturday.  #14 in particular made a big difference.

However, I don't think the pins over all were set to be more accessible than usual on Sunday.  As I posted in the "Augusta 7300 yards short course" thread, I think the pins were balanced between 6-8 difficult positions and 6-8 normal ones, with maybe 2 "easier" settings.

Compared to Dunlop's list, however, I think some of the pins he claims that were set in collection areas weren't - including #11, #15, and #18.  How many birdies on Sunday on 18 and 11?  Five each.  I watched 11 all day, and maybe one approach "funneled" to anything under 10feet. Two eagles and 16 birdies vs. 23 pars on #15.  

#14 was one of the two "easier" settings on the whole course.  2 birdies on Saturday, and 10 on Sunday.  #8 was more birdie-able as well.

The Sunday pin for #16 was basically the traditional pin, and it was definitely more accessible that Sat.

Finally, the best players in the world were gunning for the birdies a bit more on Sunday.  That partially explains the fact that scoring was lower...

But I do agree that Saturday's pins were more devilish, I disagree that Sunday's were set easier than usual for a Sunday at the Masters.

[johnk]

btw,
I meant to add that I also agree with Dunlop's opening post that the greens are still the key and you can use them to tweak scoring.  I don't think they did that much more this Sunday than previous years, though.

[Brad Klein]

Yes, some of the greens were more accessible, and as usual Dunlop deserves credit for pointing out these nuances in the course set up. The competition committee obviously made hole no. 8 reachable.

But I was dead wrong in print about ruling out last round charges on the back nine. The commitee didn't produce those scores alone; they had some amazing golfers rise to the occasion. I sat there stunned at the accuracy, power and consistency of Mickelson, Els, Choi, Langer et al. Not only do these guys all hit it ridiculously long, but the shot dispersion patterns are as tight as a sombrero.

I hate what the USGA has allowed to happen, but I really admire these athletes for rising to the occasion and making it a comparison to a Masters that nobody mentioned on TV - 1975.

[Steve_Lovett]

On the money Brad...

It was unbelievable golf Sunday...  Sure the pins were in positions where the ball fed to the hole - but Els and Mickelson hit it where they had to in order to feed it to the hole...  

Shooting 31, 33, etc. on the back nine at a longer ANGC was about GREAT play as much as a great stage...

If Els had executed a shot which could "feed to the hole" on #16, or had hit a more restrained tee shot on #18 allowing him to play nearer the flag we might be talking about Els's clutch play to beat a charging Mickelson...

The best player last week won - and ANGC got out of the way and created a great stage!

[Dunlop_White]

Nope, the pin locations on Holes 8, 10, 11, 13, and 14 provided a much better chance at birdie or eagle than their traditional Sunday pin locations. With this year's pin locations, the stage was set for some great things to happen, the players had to co-operate, and it was amazing how they did.

[Dunlop_White]

I admit that I questioned the changes two years ago too, but so did Brad Klein, Ben Crenshaw, and countless others.

Crenshaw wrote,

"Adding 300 yards, 60 of them on the last hole, that's quite a response to technology. I'm uneasy because the Masters is unique. It's about drama and great theater every year. You always hear that the Masters doesn't start until the back nine on Sunday, and there's a reason for that. The way the holes flow, the risk-reward equation, the likelihood that something dramatic will happen. It's uncanny, and that's what worries me. Augusta National is so tempting, so seductive and so special because something amazing always unfolds.

But if the winner this year, or in future years, comes home in a hard-fought 35 or 36 for the last nine holes, I'm afraid the Masters will lose some of its flavor. Augusta National has always challenged us to take chances. You can create your own shots there and live or die by them. It has encouraged golfers to be aggressive, and that's why there are always fireworks--all week and then, almost like clockwork, boom, on the back nine Sunday."

It is simply amazing how far they are driving the golf ball!!! Please check out my thread, "Augusta: A short 7300 yards"

[ed_getka]

I was happy to see one of the more exciting finishes in the Masters I have watched. I knew after the last two years of rain that I hadn't seen the true effect of the changes, so I was still waiting this year, and the back nine magic that I feared was gone, was in fact there in spades.
   I didn't see a lot of the tournament while on vacation, but how did the new trees on #11 effect play? Did the trees have the desired effect of moving tee shots more to the left to force players to flirt more with the pond?

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