Pebble Beach Golf Links vs. Cypress Point Club

[Mike Hendren]

This is posted not at a contest, but as a learning experience.  The more I see of great golf courses, thanks to the unbelievable kindess of a few individuals, the more I believe Barney - I don't know diddly.  So, in the interest of education, what are the respective strengths and weaknesses of Pebble and CPC?  Please be specific.  Do not use language such as "better" or "like" etc.  

Please be advised that I will than ask the same question with respect to The Old Course.

Also, you newbies likely know just as much as the cognoscenti so just state your honest opionion.  

How about five strengths and three weaknesses for each?

Mike

[JakaB]

I have played neither...and if I could would prefer to live in an asphalt world...that being said.. I believe that he health of a Cypress tree is more important that the strategic value of a tee shot.....and wonder.  Are there any trees on Pebble that influence strategic choices in such a way as the ones on the 18th at Cypress...and would even the most blatant anti-treeite wish they be gone.

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

I'm not gonna say any of us "don't know diddly", except in relation to Plato (late addition for the benefit of Dave S.)    We know what we like and what jazzes us about a course, and that can never be wrong.  Nor is there ever any absolute "right" about what's good or bad in a golf course, as much as people here seem to think so, all too often....

So with that in mind, I'll be brave and prepare to be ripped, by saying:

Pebble
Five strengths:  1. incredible use of available land, maximimizing having the ocean in play; 2. some of the world's best views on and from a golf course; 3. incredible tradition and feel; 4. great combination of both heroic and strategic shots available; 5. very cool subtle greens that would take a lifetime to figure out.
Three weaknesses:  1. inland holes don't live up to the greatness of seaside holes; 2. typically takes forever to play, thus ruining the experience for too many; 3. way too expensive.

Cypress
Five strengths:  1. Holds several of the best seaside holes on the planet; 2. Incredible availability of strategic options throughout the course, making it very fun to try and figure out; 3. Inland holes live up to their seaside cousins; 4. Scenic beauty to the max; 5. Very cool routing builds to a crescendo (albeit on 17th green!).
Three weaknesses:  1. Very few people ever get to play it; 2. Too short to really challenge the great players; 3. anticlimactic 18th hole.


As you see, I have strayed far from the architectural in these assessments.  But that's because I firmly believe pure "architecture" is only one of the factors in determining the strengths and weaknesses of a golf course, or it's greatness or lack thereof.

TH

[THuckaby2]

I have played neither...and if I could would prefer to live in an asphalt world...that being said.. I believe that he health of a Cypress tree is more important that the strategic value of a tee shot.....and wonder.  Are there any trees on Pebble that influence strategic choices in such a way as the ones on the 18th at Cypress...and would even the most blatant anti-treeite wish they be gone.

John - there used to be - huge trees fronting 15 tee - they made a hook the only doable play off the tee.  But they have been gone for a few years - Mother Nature took care of that!  Outside of that, I can't think of any trees at Pebble that effect things like those on 18 CPC.  Even the one to the right of 18 green, that so many seem to hate, can easily be avoided.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Shivas,

Your suggestion that I re-read Plato is the nicest compliment I have ever received, though I am not fool enough to believe anyone on this site would actually think I read it the first time.  I'd much prefer to re-read Fast Times At Ridgemont High, Dead Solid Perfect or Richard Foster's Prayer-Finding The Heart's True Home.  

Back to Pebble and Cypress.  What sayeth ya'll?

Mike

[A_Clay_Man]

Barn,

there any trees on Pebble that influence strategic choices in such a way as the ones on the 18th at Cypress...

Nothing is exactly like the use of the trees on 18 at CPC, but perhaps the trees near the 16th green come close. Also, the old 5th, used the trees on the left to dictate shot type. 13 is the only other hole where the trees can really mess-up a scorecard.But then again, I don't think a single tree on 18 at PB can do that.

Mike H- I know I know nothing but here goes.
PB's greens, their size, slope and shape are a big part of the genius. The bunkers placement, depth, shape and backside kickplates are an underrated asset, that takes a real adventurer to even contemplate, let alone learn well. The flow of holes, is a balance, not found in the modern "wow factor" era. The openness to the elements (and the potential for those elements) is another amazing strength, that few courses can duplicate. Weaknesses architecturally are hard to find. Maybe the incourse OB on 2, and the subsequent faux mounding on the right.  The addition of recent bunkers, I can not comment on, but I suspect, from their justification, they could also be viewed as a weakness.

Cypress Pt. -  Similar strengths, with respect to the greens and bunkers. Intimacy and efficiency are head and shoulders above the crowd. The climatic elements of the Monterey peninsula really make both courses lore, so great. Weaknesses architecturally, are nearly impossible to conclude.

[JakaB]

Could the argument be made that the "over play" of Pebble helped kill the trees there...where the realitive lack of play at Cypress provides a better enviornment.   Does Pebble allow carts near their trees in a manner that compaction may have injured the root structure....or could even the little feet of 60,000 rounds do the damage.

[Scott Seward]

One attempt at match play.........

1) Cypress 1-up
2) Cypress 2-up
3) Cypress 2-up
4) Cypress 1-up
5) Cypress 1-up
6) AS
7) Pebble 1-up
Pebble 2-up
9) Pebble 1-up

10) Pebble 2-up
11) Pebble 2-up
12) Pebble 1-up
13) AS
14) Cypress 1-Up
15) Cypress 2-Up
16) Cypress wins 3 and 2
17) Cypress 4 up
18) Cypress 3 up

One man's opinion....

[Joel_Stewart]

I played Pebble a few weeks ago and thought it tremendous.  It was the first time in over 10 years that I had played it (3rd time overall) and it was far better than I remembered.  The inland holes are much improved, especially the 2nd and the new 5th.  The course was in near perfect condition except the green on 14 and the left side of 18?  Its a much more demanding course than I remembered and has the smallest greens I believe I have ever seen.

Whats ironic is that one of the reasons I haven't played Pebble is because whenever I go down to Monterey I normally play Cypress.   All in all I probably would prefer to play Pebble if I had to choose one course.  My Cypress member also prefers Pebble as his favorite course.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Cypress has superior bunkering.  Very few in the direct line of play on Pebble.

Cypress has sand dunes and they're in play.

Pebble has 6 consecutive Ocean holes, 7 1/2 overall, and most are excellent (haven't played the new #5).

My Cypress member...

When did they pass those out?  I want one.  

[A_Clay_Man]

 Very few in the direct line of play on Pebble.

Scott- Sorry to jump on this, but I think you may want to re-think that one.

Holes @ PB that have cross bunkers or bunkers in the line of play;

#2, #3, #4, #5, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12, #13, #14, #16, #17 and the Finisher. Plus with greens so small most shots on the remaing holes not mentioned have bunkers needed to fly from everywhere but directly down the middle.

Thinking back to the last open at Pebble, I can't tell you how awesone it was to see them grow the tall grasses on most of the lips. They were as seaside looking as seaside gets.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

When I think of these two courses nothing but great feelings come to me. They are so close yet the golf experience is so different. Pebble is 3 or 4 strokes harder and the gap is growing by the year. Pebble is slow golf with corporate outings littering an otherwise beyond compare beautiful landscape. Pebble is wonderfully designed holes to incredibly small yet strategic greens. It has 2 or 3 of the finest places and holes in all of golf. I mean the 2nd shot to 8 is one of the truely heart stoping places in golf. 7 is none to shabby as is the walk down 9. I will always love the 2nd shot on 16 and everyone loves the feeling 18 gives you. The inland holes are better than they are given credit for. 1, 3,12,13, 14,15 and 16 are great holes. 11 is too if that is an inland hole. lol The Clubhouse and The Tap Room are to die for. Cypess well it is the opposite of Pebble, private refined, quiet, understated and views that are without compare even those at Pebble. The holes are so well routed and strategic. The natural feel and beauty of the course is timeless. I can spend hours upon hours wondering the course looking at it and enjoying the diferent feels you get.1 is a great opening hole and a knee shaking tee shot. 2 is a great tee shot. 3 is bland to me, but I at least par and birdie it a bit, 4 is a textbook par 4 that all should study. 5 tugs at all the risk reward emotions, 6 what a tee shot,7 is all any midrange 3 could be. 8 is one of my favorite 2nd shots and greens to putt, 9 is world renown and the green to spend the late afternoon with a whisky in hand practicing your short game on, 10 is a wonderful hole, 11 to 14 define a great run of par 4's, 15 is my favorite hole on earth, 16 is for the rest of you to savor, 17 tee well just bury me there. 18 is well in need of a little help on the tee shot but the green complex is wow. Dawn and dusk from the balcony on the clubhouse are without peers on this earth.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Thanks for calling me on this, Adam.  I forgot about some of the cross bunkers that must be hit over on tee shots on #2- #4 and #11.  Frankly, I didn't even remember them, which is unusual for me.  I should have clarified that I meant other than green-fronting bunkers, such as on #7, #9, #12, #14, and #18.

I don't consider side-fairway bunkers "in the line of play", as are on so many American courses, and on #6 left, #9 left, #10 left, #14 both sides (the one on the right is not in line of play for most people), and #18 right.

The holes that I originally considered to have bunkers in the line of play were #13 and #16.  By my strict definition, I'd truly add #2-#4, #8, #10-12, and #15, although how much are the ones on #12 and #15 (both about 50 yards short)really in play, even for hackers?

Cypress has #2-6, #8-13.  Generally, I like the positioning and "strategery" of the Cypress bunkering better.


How often are the Pebble bunkers hairy as in the 2000 Open?

[DMoriarty]

Cypress, in a Trump National landslide (washing the 18th away.)  

1.  Cypress has consistently better holes from start to finish, all 17 holes are beyond good.  
2.  Inland holes at Cypress are much better than at Pebble.  
3.  MacKenzie's bunkering at Cypress is well above that at Pebble.  Not for shapes, but for how the bunkers blend with the landscape, especially on the inland holes, stretching the dunesland away from the ocean to make the transitions seamless.
4.  Even including Pebble's 7th, the Cypress par 3s blow Pebble's away.  
5.  In large part because of Nos. 1-3 above, Cypress flows better.  It should be a lessen to all on how to design a golf course through different terrain while keeping the same character.
6.  Cypress, with its slight hills and undulations and natural dunes is a better natural cite.
7.  Cypress is far more sophisticated strategically.  
8.  Cypress' greens are better integrated into their surrounds.
9.  Compared to current unbearable complications at Pebble, you are much more likely to have an enjoyable round at Cypress, if you get the opportunity.
10.  MacKenzie's use of slope at Cypress is brilliant.  You'd better think about 'the way the ball bounces' before you hit.  

I guess some of the first nine points are arguable.  But the tenth point is not.  It is the use of slope which sets Cypress apart.

[Bill_McBride]

Sorry guys, to me this is a bit like trying to explain why you prefer Elle MacPherson over Cindy Crawford.  (Perhaps its the Scot surname!  )  Give me a break, why does there have to be a preference?  These are two of the classic greats, and neither is in the East!!!     I would gladly play either every day for the rest of my lift.  Elle, Cindy, PB, or Cypress.....

Come to think of it -- Pebble, Cypress, Olympic, Pasatiempo, SFGC, Meadow, Valley Club, Bel Air, Riviera, LACC... maybe there is a western tilt to the ultimate rankings!   (Just back from dinner at the club and always ready to stir the pot  )

[Carlyle Rood]

Actually, I'm currently debugging an Internet application to survey golf course aesthetics.  Pebble Beach and Cypress Point are featured throughout the survey, often comparing one with the other.  I'd appreciate it if you would complete the survey as I debug the application and work to improve it:

http://www.golfarch.com/Survey/reset.asp

There are likely to be some flaws and bugs; but, I appreciate your help as I refine it.

Carlyle

[Scott_Burroughs]

YOu forgot #4?

I played Pebble in 1998 and.....I was playing Pebble.    Just
the cross bunker escaped me.  I remember hitting an iron of
the tee, pushing it into the right rough, hitting PW about 15-
20 long of hole and delicately two-putting downhill for par in a
string of 5 straight pars.  Also remember noticing back tee on
#17 not at '72 Open location (and card location) on #4 tee.  
Have noticed it's seemingly never back there anymore, not even during AT&T.

It's been a long week, eh?

Yes, I just got back from vacation.

[A_Clay_Man]

Scott- #12 has the one short, similar to 15's but 12 also has the huge front bunker gaurding 75% of the green. All but the tiny opening on the right is gaurded.

15's is on the right and is in the line of play for any ball right of right center.

#1 also has the fairway bunker directly in the line off the tee.

To me, the cross carry is an important re-occurring motiff at PB.