"Blow wind blow . . . Wherever you may go . . ."

[DMoriarty]

We speak of "prevailing wind" as if we could set our compasses using the wind's direction as our only reference.  But where I come from, wind gets knocked around like a rodeo clown in a barrel.

Don't holes playing the same direction often have different winds?  (same course of course of course)

Isn't a constantly changing and unpredictable wind the most interesting wind?

What wind direction is "prevailing" at Augusta 12?

[A_Clay_Man]

I assume the wind in amen corner would be similar to the swirling wind one gets at Spyglass around holes 12, 15, & 17. Only the most experienced will know the tendancies and when and where to apply them.
As for prevailing wind, some places have predictable wind, day in day out, but even then there are always exceptions. I site what we use to call the joe jemseck wind that would come like clockwork out of the north at about 12:30 while golfing Pine meadows. Here in the "Land" we typically get an east wind in the a.m. and west in the p.m.. Lately we have had alot of goofy winds due to the monsoonal moisture and the recent hurricane in the gulf of mexico. The other day we played the backnine in one wind and less than hour later we were playing the same holes with a completly different wind and boy was it exciting for the mind. Seriously, 2- 3 club difference from just an hour before, Wonderful mental challenge figuring nature.

[Jim Sweeney]

Interesting comment by A_Clay_Man because it makes a good point about wind relative to rating a course for Slope.

Prevailing wind is a factor when modifying the effective course yardage for slope rating, but in reality it has little effect other than on the coasts or in the planes states. In most places, there is no one wind that is so prevelant that it effects a course the same way all the time. A_Clay_MAn's experience is pretty common. For example, a storm blows in with a westerly wind, but after it passes the wind is from the East, then the West again as the next cell approaches. Also, winds tend to change direction with the seasons, so over the course of a year they balance out in their effect on playing a golf course.

Slope raters are trained to estimate the effect wind has on a courses playability. Usually there is very little net effect, due exactly to what A_Clay_Man experienced.

[Tim_Weiman]

David,

I share your view. A constantly changing and unpredictable wind is the best. The more uncertain you are about where to hit the ball or what club to play the better. I especially like cross winds that make it difficult to decide where to start the ball. Also, unpredictable and changing winds essentially add to variety. Isn't is fun to aim 40-50 yards right or left of a green some days when the next day you might simply aim straight at it?

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

"Prevailing" has a meaning, a definition.
Certain locations are subjected to prevailing winds.

At my course in NJ the prevailing wind has been from the west for the last 50 years.

At GCGC I believe it's from the southeast.

At Pine Tree and Boca Rio it's from the southeast and west

I believe that Shinnecock, Newport, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes and other courses have their prevailing winds.

An architect who would ignore these conditions would be shortchanging his talents, his client and the golfers who traverse the golf course.

[DMoriarty]

"Prevailing" has a meaning, a definition.
Certain locations are subjected to prevailing winds.

At my course in NJ the prevailing wind has been from the west for the last 50 years.

At GCGC I believe it's from the southeast.

At Pine Tree and Boca Rio it's from the southeast and west

I believe that Shinnecock, Newport, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes and other courses have their prevailing winds.

An architect who would ignore these conditions would be shortchanging his talents, his client and the golfers who traverse the golf course.

Thanks for the information, Patrick.   I don't disagree with any of it.  I definitely agree that, like most words, "prevailing" has at least one definition and maybe even a meaning or two.   And I will take your word as truth for the rest of the information you have shared.  

But, perhaps I wasn't clear.  I am referring to localized, micro-divergence in an otherwise prevailing wind pattern.  Mountains, hills, valleys, and canyons all disrupt and redirect prevaling winds, as  as do trees, buildings, and given time,  the composition of ground cover.  Even sand dunes disrupt the prevailing wind, while at the same time being constantly created and destroyed by the winds they disrupt.  

Wouldn't an architect who ignored these localized anomolies "be shortchanging his talents, his client and the golfers who traverse the golf course."

How about a critic who ignored these localized anomolies, instead only observing the direction of the prevailing wind.   Wouldn't his critique be potentially flawed and misleading?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

If the diverse wind patterns are random and unpredictable then I think the architect would ignore them, but, If there were prevailing winds, I would think he would take them into consideration.  I believe the decision would be site and condition specific.

[DMoriarty]

DMoriarty,

If the diverse wind patterns are random and unpredictable then I think the architect would ignore them, but, If there were prevailing winds, I would think he would take them into consideration.  I believe the decision would be site and condition specific.

Patrick,  So those are the only two wind options in the world:  "Prevailing" or "random and unpredictable?"  Where did I say anything about random and unpredictable?  

[A_Clay_Man]

I liked that you mention the handicap system. It seems to me, part of the essence of the game would be to "get it right". With technology and information resources in abundance, why oh why, doesn't the usga spend some of that bootie on a interface with the weather conditions for a particular day?

 Surely, a round in a three-five club wind, from any tee box, should have a differential greater than the differences in playing a shorter/longer course on a calm day.

Don't most supers electronically monitor the current weather, futurecasts as well?

[THuckaby2]

Adam:

Course raters DO get all of the best information available, and wind does factor in.  Believe it.  The issue is that wind is "prevailing" at very few courses... at those where it is, the system works very well.  At the vast majority where it's not, it's just plain impossible to rate for every conceivable wind.  How could you possibly monitor it and determine it for each round?

TH

[Jim Sweeney]

Since the handicap system is based on a player's performance over a period of time, so the slope rating system tries to average out conditions over time. Over twenty rounds, a player is apt to encounter all sorts of weather conditions, never two exactly alike.

To take into consideration the weather conditions for one round would likewise imply adjusting handicaps for each round based on the weather. Since the conditions are never exactly alike and indeed vary during the round, such a system would be impossible to centrally administer.

Best bet: negotiate for more strokes if you think you deserve them due to the weather. If you were to try that with me, you'd get nowhere, because if we played a number of matches over time, it would all even out anyway. And the reality is most golfers play with the same fellow competitors in most of their rounds.

P.S. A_Clay_Man: ran into a fellow in Northern KY last week wearing a Twin Warriors cap. Said he really enjoyed the course. Where is it exactly? Is that the new resort course North of Bernalillo?I'll be in ABQ probably in Oct, and at Christmas, and would like to try it out. Also would like to try Black MEsa if time permits. Finally, I hear of some updating being planned for Lake Cochiti GC. Are you aware of any news/progress there? I love to play there but the conditions were pretty bad last time.

[JLahrman]

Maybe just wishful thinking here:

Is there any way that the USGA could post the assumed wind speed used when rating each course?  Then each day, you could alter the score you post based on that day's wind conditions, maybe one stroke per five mph (I have no idea what it would actually be).  Would this cause headaches?  Probably.  Would it even out in the end?  Maybe.  But say I've shot two 80s and I've got a four index.  If those are both on days that wind conditions are normal, neither of them might count.  If one is on a calmer day and one on a windier day than normal, I drop the calm 80 (an effective 82) and post the windy 80 (which is an effective 77 now).  Now the 77 is good, I'm a 3.8, and I'm heading to Mid-Am qualifying.  Where I find my game, move on to Wilmington, beat a stellar field, and go to Augusta.  All because of a crafty wind adjustment.  Let's remember the Ben Curtis story people.

Given that I think very few of us would argue that wind is the greatest variable to your score at a course short of letting the rough grow for three weeks straight, there must be a way to account for it in you handicap.  Other ideas?

[A_Clay_Man]

Jesp-I wasn't really thinking about a seperate central system, more of a fiddling with numerators and denominators when conditions were either severe or mundane. Of course, posting away scores would need to be done that day, at the track of. This is a problem too, no?

As for Twin Warriors, It is part of the Santa ana resort right there in Bernallio. (very close to 25 & 550) I find the course to be a real treat and a must see, even though the walkability is difficult . Revetted bunkering and variety of greens shape being the allure. Plus the site is partially sacred and the spirit is mostly felt at the base of the snakeheads ridge. Very cool.

I will be seeing Black Mesa very very soon and will report.As for Cochitti Lakes I know of nothing new. But thats relative. I understand most of the re-do is done. I don't know what it was like before, but the removal of the barranca-like cross hazards, that I understand were there, is a step in the wrong direction. I liked alot about the course especially the serenity of almost every hole. Some of the almost skyline type greens were visually challenging and required accuracy, but as you eluded to the maintenance, issues are pervasive and with the build-up of the quality both in Bernallio, Sandia Pk. and now La Mesillia the competition is very tough.

[Jim Sweeney]

A_C_M:

Loss of the natural arroyos and washes at Cochiti would certainly diminish the feeling of being far away from the metropolitan crush of ABQ and the more lush, refined confines of the city's golf courses. I will say, however, that Cochiti relies heavily on the tourist trade from Santa Fe hotels, and when there are one or two busloads of those folks spending their recreation dollars on a day trip to play golf, 5-6 hour rounds are the norm. Perhaps part of their thinking was reducing the number of lost balls, or trying to reduce the number of patron/rattlesnake encounters (no, I'm not kidding, those of you reading this who are not familiar with the area being discussed.) I agree, also, that competition from the newer pueblo courses probably finally got their attention.

Also, I played the Marty Sanchez course in Santa Fe when it was practically new, less than a year old. I really liked it. Have you been there recently? I have lost the card and don't remember the exact order of holes, but I was impressed. It doesn't get much notice in any travel commentaries about NM golf and I wonder why. It's good, accessible, and I thought a good value. Your thoughts?

[A_Clay_Man]

I have only heard stories about Marty Sanchez. I will get there someday soon, I hope.

On Cochitti, I have seen golfer's eyes light-up at the mention of the course, no doubt from fond memories. I doubt they would feel the same way today, seeing it without those cross hazards. Whatever their justification for removing them was, it seems like they were one of the most integral parts of the soul and challenge.

To change it for "pace of play" reasons just goes to show how thinking like a marketing guy about golf, is a loser!

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

What other wind conditions are there besides, prevailing and/or random ?

[DMoriarty]

What other wind conditions are there besides, prevailing and/or random ?

Patrick,  In my experience, wind  direction varies even where there are prevailing winds.  For example, a high hill or a canyon or other physical features may regularly alter the direction of the prevailing wind in a particular location.  

Further, the physical feature will always alter the wind in the same manner, given certain specific conditions.    If one is familiar enough with the location and the conditions, one might even be able to predict this anamoly from the usual wind direction.  Architects ought to try to make sense of this, if they really want to adequately incorporate the wind into their designs.  

So, imagine two par threes playing the same direction on a course with a prevailing wind direction.  Say one is bordered by a large ridge which ends just before the green.  The wind may come around that ridge in a different direction than previaling.  Therefore the two par 3s will have different winds.

All this is based on my experience, golf and otherwise.  Much of the "otherwise" was spent just off the Eastern slope of the Rockies, where there is very definitely a prevailing wind, sometimes to the tune of 70 mph.  

But maybe the wind blows differently on the East Coast.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

Judging by California's recall and election, I would say that the wind blows differently in your neck of the woods.

The wind is either prevailing (and that can be plural) or random, there are no other choices, and both of your examples are one or the other.

Reread your own post and you'll see that you've either answered your own question, or contradicted yourself.

Probably not unusual in California.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick.

Prevailing wind, plural?  Prevailing windsss?  Usually in a golf context we keep to one prevailing wind per time period (summer/winter, morning/afternoon.)  Like you kept to one wind direction per course in your first post.  And, usually that wind direction is determined by which way the wind generally blows over a pretty large area, say an area at least as big as the golf course.  Go up a hundred feet or so over most points on most courses and more than likely you will find one prevailing wind.

But, if you want to, I guess you can take the position that a seperate "prevailing wind" exists at every single point in space with a unique and recurring wind direction.  But that would strip the phrase of most of its usefulness, wouldnt it?  

Just so I understand your position, could you please help me characterize what I saw today?  

The front 9 at Rustic is in a canyon which runs north-south; it doesnt take up much space, and all the flags are visible from the entry road.  When I drove out the entry road today, this is what I saw:  
-- Three flags were blowing South;
-- Three flags were blowing North;
-- Three flags were blowing East, but all at slightly different angles.  
   I know from experience that each of these flags regularly blows in the direction described above at this time of year, and at the time of day at  that which I was passing.  

In your world, where all wind is either prevailing or random, how would characterize the wind(s) I describe above?    
 
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

You've answered your own question.

If each flag was blowing in the direction you describe, and that is the normal direction that they blow, then that is the prevailing wind for each hole.

No wonder Southern Californians are so confused, with 367 candidates for Governor, you can't even tell which way the wind blows when you're looking at the flags.

Find an argument where you can have a substantive position .

[DMoriarty]

You are a fascinating individual Patrick.  I have never met anyone (on line or in life) who so tenatiously niggled over trivialities.  You might be a rhetorical force if you ever turned your energy to something other than splitting hairs and the such.  

The "substantive" point of my initial thread:  It is a mistake to assume that the wind only blows in one direction across an entire course  at any given time.

But thanks for the dialogue on the true meaning and use of the phrase "prevailing wind."  

At my course in NJ the prevailing wind has been from the west for the last 50 years.

At GCGC I believe it's from the southeast.

At Pine Tree and Boca Rio it's from the southeast and west

I believe that Shinnecock, Newport, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes and other courses have their prevailing winds.

You frequent some interesting clubs, Patrick.  So then . . . at any given moment in time, the wind direction at GCGC is perfectly uniform?  All across the course?   And the same for all the other courses listed?    

Wow, the East Coast must be the real Magic Kingdom, with wind that is neverblows through the trees at your courses, it really blows through[/] the trees.  I didnt know air could pass unencumbered through wood, leaves and the such.  Must be a tough place to get out  altered by physical features.  I guess when the wind of the wind!

I will give you this though, I had a very good laugh at the ridiculousness of this conversation.  And I do admit that it does take two . . .

[Patrick_Mucci]

DMoriarty,

The "substantive" point of my initial thread:  It is a mistake to assume that the wind only blows in one direction across an entire course  at any given time.

No one ever said it did.

That's a false conclusion that you drew to suit your position.

You've got to learn to express yourself better.

I too have enjoyed the silly jousting.  

[A_Clay_Man]

Since I rally against lack of follow-up, from posts that ask for requests. I thought I'd walk the walk.

Finally golfed Marty Sanchez Links de Santa Fe. Our group was blessed with a steady 1.5-3 clubs of wind. Unfortunately, it was a Saturday, and we follwed a toonamint. The par 3 fourth hole was a train wreck, in this wind. There were four groups backed-up when we arrived.

The golf course was "all it ever has to be" and Baxter and the Ortiz boys, followed their marching orders well. Marrying the needed ease, for the expected clientel, by not severely undulating the fairways, the greens represented the true challenge and face of the golf course.

The city of SF spent 19 million on the project, which included an adjacent sport center. The expenditure was justified, through a feasability study, that assumed golf course revenues would more than handle the load. But upon close inspection, those numnbers were based on doing 113k rnds/yr. They only missed it by 75%.

 Marty Sanchez was a skilled young golfer, who lost his life and the city named the course for him. Head-Pro and consumate gentleman, former NM State U coach, Ross Nettles has the proper perspective while reassuring the city council that "in 100 years this course will still be here, generating revenue, long after the debt service is paid off". (ok not that long)

The course is also indirectly responsible for the impetus to build Black Mesa. An interesting story involving Ed Peck and the county.

Besides the easily walkable 18 hole course, Baxter and the boys built a nine-holer called the "great 28". Eight par 3's and a par 4 finisher, Missing Links at mequon came instantly to mind. But this wasn't your fathers executive course. It was an intimate mix of par 3's with greensites that would be the envy of many of the 17k courses in this country.

If attitude was the real criteria for magazine rankings, Marty Sanchez and Ross Nettles would be top 10. Worthy of a visit for any and every one going to see Black Mesa.

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