Opposite Cants

[Patrick_Mucci]

How often do you see fairways and greens with opposite cants ?

How often is this dual feature "constructed"

It seems to be one of the more subtle methods of preventing the golfer from getting under the hole, or near the hole with their approach shot.  This feature is especially effective when greens are maintained at a fast pace.

The 3rd hole at GCGC is a perfect example of this unique feature.  A seemingly straight away hole that resists scoring rather well.  The fairway slopes from high right to low left with the green sloping from high left to low right.

Most right handed golfers draw or hook the ball off of that stance, causing their approach to go left of the green or well above the hole, where they face a fast, downhill putt.
Most lefties will peel the ball left as well.

Chipping or pitching from above the hole is also a challenge.

It seems rare when one encounters a hole with this simple, yet highly effective design.  Why is that ?
Has architecture, with the purpose of  providing a unique playing challenge become a lost art ?

[coota]

It is not than common I suspect because you rarely see natural landforms like this and it actually makes the hole slightly easier at least in theory.  Playing from a hanging lie (fairway sloping from right to left) will encourage a draw which of course is exactly what you want when the green is sloping left to right.  having the fairway and green on the same camber is hard because the ball flighjt tends to push it off the green.

Having said that, I grew up on a course that had an extreme reverse cant example and it was a bloody nightmare because you were always overcompensating for the fairway cant  rather than just letting it happen.  It was a geat hole as a result and I think we should see more of it.

[Steve Lang]

 

Perhaps you should play more in the North Carolina Sand Hills area..  numerous left to right and right to left canted fairways and then whether reverse canted or not , many greens just seem that way from the visuals..

[Patrick_Mucci]

coota,

With today's earth moving equipment, and the willingness to move dirt, you'd think more of these holes would be built.

What I think you're missing is the ease of the recovery shot from the left, off of a fairway that slopes right to left to a green that slopes right to left, and the difficulty of a recovery shot from that same leftside location to a green that slopes left to right, away from the golfer.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Pat,
what a great post, and I could'nt agree more regarding why more architects don't practice this.

Winged Foot #16 is one of the first that comes to mind. It is the best I have seen to date.

Some of the better examples of the modern:

Coor & Crenshaw at Kapalua Plantation which has a few subtle but opposite cants. Rustic Canyon #16 has an opposite cant to some degree, and it fools with you, but after that, I struggle to think of anyone else doing it.

[ian]

Tom Paul told me that Bill Coore looks specifically for that situation because it makes some of the best holes.

There are a few great examples at Huntingdon Valley. The 14th being the one that comes to mind first. I do think Flynn loved this type of hole when given the opportunity, he seemed to be very aware of stances and there impact on play.

The fun result of this style of hole is the approach shot is tough. You either try to hit the shot directly at the green and not overcook it due to the lie, this is usually all carry over a deep hazard or strong bank; OR try and fight the lie and run the ball onto the green using the natural slopes to come around the hazard.

Fun holes to play. I also think there are more examples than people think, once they go through the courses they like.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ian, There are many at Friars Head too.

Here are a few of them:

-Hole #9, if you don't get over the ridge, and you have the green to contend with.

-Hole #15, plus its of a downhill nature.

-Hole #16 depending where you are in the fairway.

[ian]

Tommy,

This was the hole where Tom made the comment. It may be one of the best examples I know. Two perfect opposing landforms.

[gookin]

I think #2 at the Upper Cascades fits this description.  The fairway slopes sharply to the right, but the green has a subtle right to left slope.  The way the green is tucked up against the woods to the right , the safe area on the second shot is short left.  This is fair given that all but the best of tee shots is left with a long iron off a hanging lie.  A tough shot for the second approach shot of the day.  A par at #2 feels a lot like a birdie.

[SPDB]

I think consistent cants are more difficult, and more intriguing. Playing on an uneven lie which promotes a draw, to a green that slopes heavily from right to left is a difficult task, as anyone who has played Merion #5 will tell you.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

I guess it's what makes each golfer feel comfortable or uncomfortable.  

I find # 5 at Merion comfortable because you're provided generous margins for error on the right side, and you can feed the ball to the hole, by working it's natural flight off of that fairway lie, and the terrain right and short of the green.

The 3rd at GCGC makes for a much more difficult recovery because the tendency is to leave the ball above the hole, facing a slick, downhill approach.

[TEPaul]

I think opposite cants is great stuff but even just green orientation works as well or maybe even better. I guess it's hard to find better on the latter than ANGC's #13---a hooking lie into a fading green orientation. That's why I was so dedicated to doing what we did on GMGC's #7--that too is a hooking lie (for the aggressive go in two temptation) into a fading green orientation and better yet the super penal quarry protects most of the left front and the entire left side of the green. It's so easy to hit a big draw or pull off the fairway lie and obviously that's the last thing you want to do unless you really aim way right!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Many forget at # 13 at ANGC, that just two holes later, the fairway and green both cant right to left.

Several other fairways offer interesting shots as well.

# 2, # 3, # 5, # 9, # 10, # 11 and # 18.

There's alot more going on at ANGC then meets the eye, especially when the eye is watching TV.

[SPDB]

Pat -
My opinion is based more on the physics principle that things in motion remain in motion until acted on by an opposite force.

A drawn shot turning as it does from right to left has very little stopping ability on a green that is sloped in the same direction. However, if the green at Merion #5 were canted from left to right, it would help stop the ball. Personally, I think consistent dramatic cants make for tougher shots for those reasons.

Just my opinion, though, you still could be wrong.    

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

If your game dictates an approach to # 5 with a low, duck hook, I can understand the difficulties you face.

But, for most golfers, it depends upon their ability to understand what they're confronted with, their course management skills and their ability to successfully execute the intended/prefered shot.

Some are able to perceive and solve the problem, others are simply not capable of discerning, analyzing, deciding and executing the proper shot.

With today's equipment, and the ability to gain higher trajectories, canted greens would seem to have a diminished effectiveness.

I would also suspect that the areas immediately around most greens benefit from excessive water dispersed through less then state of the art irrigation systems, which also diminishes their effectiveness.

Work on a high draw, aim a little further right, take a little less club, and get your left thumb on top of the shaft and I think you'll see the light.

In my limited experience, I've noticed that most good to very good amateur golfers invariably listen to lower handicap players when it comes to learning about how to play a given shot, or hole.

It's very rare when you find a PGA Tour player, scratch or very low handicap golfer seeking playing advice from a 5, 10, 20 or 36 handicap  player, but, you could be on to something  

[SPDB]

Just what i needed for sunday brunch, a pat mucci special.
a thinly worded agreement/concession, hidden behind several
lines of condescension. hmmm, i'm full.  

pat - do you think #5 would be an easier hole if the green were canted in the opposite direction?

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

It's what you ordered, just desserts  

Bon Appetite  

P.S.  I didn't post any thinly worded concession/agreement.

[SPDB]

Pat - perhaps i was unfair and your agreement was more overt than I originally indicated.  

now onto my question.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Your question is hypothetical and impossible to answer, especially without knowing the specific changes in the surrounding terrain and the green.