Re creating a lost course

[Jonathan Davison]

If you could reconstruct a lost course by a great golf architect Mackenzie, Colt, Ross etc, how would you under take the project? would you completely recreate the lost course or would you add your own design. Wexler's the Missing Links just stirs up so much emotion within our lost golf courses. With courses like the Lido or Timber Point.
In Doak's book about Mackenzie he talks of a possible lost Mackenzie course in the north east of England within a country estate called Wynyard Hall. I'm not sure but the estate was recently up for sale, could this Mackenzie course be recreated. Would you want to recreate his work, if you could?.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

One of life's great sadnesses is driving past the site of a former golf course and seeing little traces of it.  Near me, here in England, you can still see the vestiges of Mirlees.  I don't know if it was much of a course but it was one of the courses on which C.T. (Charlie) Chevalier (the long-serving professional at Heaton Moor) set his one-time world record of 31 holes-in-one between 1918 and 1970.  there isn't even a memorial plaque.

There's almost a tear in the eye as one reads of Englewood and Fresh Meadow on which early US Opens were played.  Does anything survive of either?  But having read in these posts of famous old courses wrecked by later architects and course developers perhaps it was kinder to put them to sleep while they were still at their peak.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Does anyone know if plans of any of these long-lost courses still exist?  Even if the land were available, would we know what to re-create?

[Andy Levett]

A new course was built at Wynyard about ten years ago as part of an upmarket housing development. Martin Hawtree was the architect. I've not played there but as far as I know it bears no relation to the lost MacKenzie course - or if it does the marketing people didn't see fit to mention it.
In fact the only reference I have come across to a previous course on the estate was in Doak's book. Sic transit gloria MacKenzie...

[Cliff Hamm]

There was a Tillinghast design along the water , 9 holes I think,  in Jamestown, RI until World War II or so.  It then went into disrepair and as you can imagine after 50 years or so was an overgrown mess.  About 10 years ago an attempt was made to resurect it with Brad Faxon as the consulting architect and with plans to make it 18. Unfortunately, the project became too expensive and was abandoned.  In the meantime it was 'developed' into a natural area and housing also I think built on the rest.  The USGA did a feature on this when it was in the planning stages in their magazine.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Do any of you clever people who know how to put photographs up on this site have photos of some of these lost courses?  I'd love to see some.  For that matter, does anyone have pictures of the lost holes at Formby?  I only know the course in its present-day state.

Thinking about it, one course I'd love to re-create is Rhyl in North Wales.  It is an old club (1890) which has seen many tribulations in its time.  Before the Second World War it was a James Braid links layout of some repute, hosting professional matches with the likes of Henry Cotton and senior amateur championships.  During the war the sea eroded much of the course (the sea moved inland 550 yards between 1911 and 1945) and when the war was over and thoughts turned to restoring the golf course there was room only for 9 holes.  Housing estates and a holiday camp were built on other surviving parts of the course and the (clearly necessary) sea defences took up yet more space, so now it is a 9-hole layout running to 6165 yards and a par of 70.  It's fun to play, but the sad bit comes when you get to the far end of the course (the par-5 4th/13th) and you see a stretch of unoccupied dunes in front of you which was once golf course and now lies empty.  Whatever development plans someone once had for that land never came to fruition.  To finish a sad tale - the clubhouse burned down in 1990 - Centenary Year!

[Cliff Hamm]

Mark

There's a book that i'm sure many are familiar with about the lost courses of America.  Forget it's exact name but it came out about 2-3 years ago and had pictures and layouts.

cliff

[blasbe1]

"Missing Links" by Daniel Wexler I believe, it's literally on my coffee table.  

Two of greatest lost courses have modern day relatives, Lido Beach and Timber Point (currenly owned and operated by Suffolk County) the former shares no common holes with it's great predecessor as discussion on this board revealed and the later has had an additional nine holes cramned into it.  Timberpoint currently has three nines (Red, White and Blue) and each possess several orignal holes and new ones too.  Although I believe the Red and Blue nines have the lionshare of originals.  I've said it before on this board, if the County was properly motivated Timberpoint could be restored and hosting a U.S. Open inside of 10 years.  The site is still that good (IMHO).  
 

[GeoffreyC]

The greatest example that I am aware of is Linc Roden and the Huntingdon Valley membership's reclaiming of the lost C-nine.

While not an exact copy due to driving range and environmental constraints, it is as sensitive to Flynn's original as was possible.

[Gerry B]

the original layout of the lido club would top my list - hands down

claude harmon back in his day said it was every bit as good as pine valley

[blasbe1]

If #2 on the C-Nine at Huntingdon was a Flynn original, it was either a 5-par or he was out to lunch for that one.  As a 4-par it is a horribly designed hole in comparison to the rest of what is a great design.    

[DPL11]

blasbe1,

I agree with you 100%. That may be the only questionable hole on that entire property. Forced to hit a mid-long iron off the tee, and trying to smash a 3 wood for the second shot on a par 4 is goofy.

I think somebody told me that the wetland area, which forces the lay up, was fairway originally. It would be a super hole if that wasn't the case.


Doug

[ian]

I walked the 'C' Nine with Linc (Tom and Wayne too) and there are a number of changes that were made due to the changes in enviornmental regulations. I would bet that much of what you don't like has to do with the restrictions placed on Linc and the club. The practice facility altered two holes all by itself.

But he was the right guy to do it, and he tried his damnest to be true to the origional nine holes. There is no intentional "Lincisms", he was committed to Flynn. His work was excellent concidering what he had to deal with.

What would I do? we have a completely intact, overgrown, CH Alison course in town formerly known as York Downs. Everything is still there (although Thompson renovated many green sites), but unfortunately it is a city park now (mounds and all). That one, I would rebuild as it was, there would be no "ianisms" added to the course. That's what I would do.

The only issue you get into is what you've got. Thompson's Bigwin Island was still in the ground at Bigwin Island. All 5,700 yards and greens around 2500 square feet. Would you rebuild that?

The 'C' Nine worked becuase it had size and length enough to fit today, most of these courses simply can not return to modern times untouched.

Linc's restored 9th on the C Nine. Damn Impressive if you ask me.

[Bruce_Dixon]

At the Tor Hill GC in Regina, Saskatchewan (18 holes Stanley Thompson 1931) a third nines holes with sand greens existed immediately next to the course.  It is not known weather the sand greens course was also done by Thompson.  For whatever reason the course was abandoned in the 1970's.  When we expanded the course to 27 holes (01-02) we were able to incorporate some of the new holes within the old sand greens course's corridors.  The sandy soil and topography was good and most of the holes were lined with mature pines and spruce.  We were able to emmulate the bunkering style used on the existing holes.  The main challenges involved were getting the first and ninth holes to start/end near the existing clubhouse.  

Bruce

[GeoffreyC]

Linc's comments on the C-nine at Huntingdon Valley can be found in his Feature Interview (December 2001) on this site.

It's a good read.

[TEPaul]

Holes #6 and #7 on HVGC's restored (out of sixty years of obsolence!!!) are not exactly like they once were due to environmental restrictions today and the practice range (which didn't exist originally as Geoff Childs just said) but the rest of the holes are probably very close. I'm glad HVGC and Linc pushed through hole #7 finally though, even in it's present altered and compromised form or HVGC would've had a restored "C" eight instead of "C" nine!

#2 is somewhat of a question mark today versus what it once might've been due to environmental restrictions today and tree growth down the left side of the first half of the hole.

A number of golfers and some on here have said #2 is a goofy hole and that's certainly their good right and opinion to say so but I personally wouldn't agree.

I say that because I believe they're failing to completely either understand or appreciate what Flynn was up to on that "C" nine and on a hole like #2. That nine originally was supposed to be the ratched up super difficult nine on HVGC's 27 hole "A", "B" and "C" nine complex. The golf course was originally intended to be a progressively more difficult championship test from "A" to "C". HVGC's "C" nine may have been the hardest nine in the world in it's day!!

Just about the entire "C" nine was intended to be a championship "shot testing" affair which meant to reach most of those par 4s even a good golfer basically had to hit two of his Sunday best!! The option---and consequently the strategic alternatives involved simply taking another shot to reach the green surfaces if your two Sunday bests didn't come off A-one perfect.

Holes like these---and a nine like the "C" nine are misunderstood today because we think too much in such things as par and particularly GIR! Flynn didn't think that way back then on a true championship offering like the "C" nine was intended to be.

And just to prove this point the "C" nine was probably as long when it was built as it is today---so try to imagine how "shot testing" demanding it was back in that day!

This is the way Pine Valley was back in that early day too on a number of its holes---a super Sunday Best "shot testing" affair. What you needed to do on HVGC's "C" nine #2 was probably a little like what you needed to do on PVGC's #4, #7, #13, #16, #18 back in those early days---you just had to hit your two best and longest shots ("shot testing") or you had to be comfortable with adding a shot to get onto the green and adding a shot onto your score for the hole. That was the option in some of those early "shot testing" holes and designs!

The difference with HVGC's #2 is you had to do that and be damn accurate too as you flirted as close to that creek off the tee as possible. #2 is a lot about length but it's even more about tee shot accuracy too!

In these days of "par" and "GIR" fixation holes like these and certainly what they were all about back then are misunderstood and underappreciated. What golf was back then in this "shot testing"/championship context is misunderstood and underappreciated too!

A hole like the "C" nine's #2 for those very good golfers back then would be something like the same hole today for very good golfers of probably around 550 yards combined with the need to skirt really close to a creek off the tee!! Anything less and the hole basically turns into a short par 5 which of course wasn't exactly the point either back in that day!

[wsmorrison]

Linc Roden told me the heights of the trees in the wetlands to the left off the tee on C-2 allowed the better long ball hitters to reach the opposite sides of the creek with their drives up until the nine was shut down.  The restrictions in play today by wetland authorities prevented any work done in this area.  But again, this course, and the C-nine especially was meant to test specific shot demands and was in the mold of a championship design as Flynn and others thought in their day--most of whom were in the so-called Philadelphia School.  Any analysis should be done with this perspective in mind and the limitations imposed upon Linc and HVCC.

I too have a dream to recreate a lost course.  Perhaps this one may come true.  Care to guess what it is?