[Jim Johnson]

I was talking with fellow GCA'er Greg Murphy last evening. Greg is the designer of a neat 9-hole track in Saskatchewan Canada, called Katepwa Beach Golf Club...
http://www.golfkatepwa.com/

Anyway, I was telling Greg that I'm no big fan of his 5th hole, a short slightly uphill par 3 of some 120 yards to a skyline green, albeit blind to the golfer on the tee box. I did mention, however, that it is growing on me, that particular hole anyway, as my playing partner and I came within 2 feet of recording aces within mere seconds of each other...


Which brought up an interesting question. What would have happened if we'd aced the hole? Not just one, but both of us? Would anybody really have believed such a thing could happen? We had no witnesses (we were golfing as a twosome), the group ahead had moved on to the next tee some one hundred yards away through a grove of trees, and the group behind was somewhere on the previous hole.

Here's a photo from the tee...


To give you a better idea of what the golfer is facing, the hole plays slightly uphill, with a big slope coming down from a large hill on the left side. The golfer, if unable to hit the green on the fly or bounce it up onto the green, does have the potential of rolling his/her tee shot onto the green from the slope on the left side, and this is exactly what both of us did that day, or what we believe we did, as we actually couldn't see the roll of the ball, either ball, once it went down below the horizon of the green.

Here's a photo from behind the green, showing the slope (now on the right side of the photo) which comes down to the green.


So, my question ...

What do you think of a blind green on a par-3 hole? Course architect Les Furber and I had this discussion 10 years ago, and I totally agreed with him then, that the golfer should be able to see the roll of the ball on the green, especially as it rolls into the hole for a hole-in-one. Furber told me that he designs par-3's so that the green is at grade or below, just for that specific reason ... he wants to give the golfer the opportunity to watch the ball roll into the hole if he/she ever was so lucky as to hit it in.

Which brings us to our particular situation ... both of us hitting our tee shots within 2 feet of the hole that day. I think it would have been awesome to have watched mine go in (I was hitting first) and would have been blown away to stand and watch my buddy's go in as well, just seconds later.

Granted, it was intriguing to walk up to the green, knowing that both of our shots were somewhere near the hole, but unsure as to exactly how near the hole, but still...

Thoughts anyone?

Apologies if the photos are large. And not of "Aidan Bradley" quality.

Jim

[Andy Stamm]

I have absolutely no problem with blind par 3s, both totally blind (15 Cruden Bay) and just where you simply can't see the putting surface. And, I can think of a few uphill par 3s that I really like as well.

Additionally, I enjoy the variety. I get tired of playing downhill all the time.

[Joe Buckley]

There was a blind par 3 at the course where I grew up playing golf, just over 200yds with trees all down the right and the green sunk down so only the top of the pin was visable. One Saturday golfers kept coming back to the clubhouse claiming an ace on said hole, drinks galore until one of the afternoon golfers caught the kid that'd been running onto the green when a ball went close, putting the ball in the hole and then running back and hiding in the woods while the golfer walked to the green!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Land has to dictate and sometimes an uphill par 3 is the only way, it is a very cost effective and very economical walking to get to upper bits of a land you cant get up 100 feet in one hole with a walk from the previous hole, the hole and a walk to the next tee. However I think they are a big minus in the scheme of things and it is better if you can see the putting surface from the tee. Golf course design is often sacrifice of some to get the maximum out of the whole land.

[Duncan Cheslett]

On my home course we've got at least two par 3s where you've no idea of your ball's position on the green until you get there - or even if it's on the green at all.

I quite enjoy the walk from the tee after hitting a good shot and the ball's position being revealed only as you crest the hill. Those who have recorded aces in these circumstances say that the pleasant surprise on reaching the green compensates to a large degree for missing out on seeing the ball actually drop.

[Keith OHalloran]

Jim,
On my course, we have a par 3 that had pin positions that made the hole blind but had a view of the pin. I was playing with a lefty that played a fade and a righty that played a draw. Both hit the same flighted shots directly at the pin. The lefty had played first. When we got to the green, the lefty had gotten a hole in one and the righty missed by about an inch to the front left of the cup. Based upon his ball flight, the righty must have been extremely close as well. Since the lefty was my opponent that day, I told him that if his ball had come to rest just short of the hole, and then was knocked in by the righty's, he would have had to replace the ball to its original location. (this of course was a joke as we did not see what happened, and I value free drinks more than my small Nassau bet) While I have no idea if that is correct, it certainly got him thinking about his hole in one for a while!

[David_Tepper]

Funny, I was thinking about starting a thread on this very topic just a few days ago. Having been lucky enough to make a few holes-in-one (and seen the ball role in the hole each time), I am not a big fan of blind par-3's. Three of the four par-3's on the Lake Course at the Olympic Club used to be blind (now 2 of the 4 are blind) and I thought that was one of the weaknesses of the course.

I have no problem with one (or possibly two) par-3's on a course being blind. As Adrian Stiff has noted, sometimes you need to have an uphill par-3 for routing purposes. There is a certain tension created when climbing the hill (or cresting a dune) to see where your shot has ended up.     

[Mark Johnson]

I like them.   I think holes where you need to commit to a spot are really good tests of golf.   My one caveat, though, is that i think all blind holes should have at least one tee which is not blind for beginning golfers who may get scared off by the shot.



The 7th at Erin Hills (which i believe is a copy of a hole at lahnich) is one of my favorite holes.   Too bad it wont be played at the open and substitued with the Bye hole

[Adam Clayman]

Your scenario kind of happened to me. On my first ace, April 13th 1989, at Big Run in Lemont Illinois, my playing partner and I both hit really good shots. I didn't see mine at all, just felt that pure nothing feeling when you catch one clean. I saw his and it appeared to be really close to the flag, but it was an uphill hole and the surface was invisible. When we get up here, there's only one ball a foot left of the hole. exactly where I'd expect his ball to have ended up. Sure enough mine was in the hole.

Having not seen the ball go in the hole did not and does not diminish the experience one iota.

So, I disagree that the golfer should always be able to see the ball's ultimate conclusion. This entitlement attitude is not good for golf and it's not good for the rest of life, either.

[Simon Holt]

My first hole in one was at a blind par 3- the people on the next tee went crazy.  I went to the bar.

Its a pretty good hole too- its called the Redan.  I am surprised no one has used this hole as a template......

I don't really mind par 3s being blind, but it is nice to see some of the flag.  Every 3 being blind, or every 3 playing downhill, or all sloping right to left would of course be less interesting than if there is a nice balance of 3s.  I like the 10th at Friars Head and quite often I imagine you cant see the pin there at all.

Totally blind like the 13th at The Glen can be a bit of a lottery but no more so than second shots into an Alps hole or Perfection at North Berwick.

[Tom ORourke]

Paul Cowley did a course near Albany, New York called Orchard Creek. It has a blind par 3 that is very different. It is a 2 level green, but the front half is the higher side. Imagine the 18th at Olympic turned 180 degrees.  When the pin is in the back you can only see the top 2/3 of the flag. A few years I was playing there with some friends and my son and he flew it into the cup on an earlier hole, the 160 yard 6th hole. It ripped the back of the cup out and bounced out. When we played the 11th, the blind shot, we all hit good shots and went up to find only 3 balls. A friend of ours was 3 feet from the cup and was talking trash on how he was going to make a birdie. But my son walked past the cup, looked in and said, "Fine. Make your 2, mine is in the hole!" We never got to see it go in but we laughed so hard it brought the ranger over. My son was that close to 2 in one round, and he would not have seen the second one. I have made a few eagles on elevated holes and was not able to see them go in but 2s are a little different than 1s.

[Anthony Gray]

  Cruden Bay

[Niall C]

My first hole in one was at a blind par 3- the people on the next tee went crazy.  I went to the bar.

Its a pretty good hole too- its called the Redan.  I am surprised no one has used this hole as a template......

I don't really mind par 3s being blind, but it is nice to see some of the flag.  Every 3 being blind, or every 3 playing downhill, or all sloping right to left would of course be less interesting than if there is a nice balance of 3s.  I like the 10th at Friars Head and quite often I imagine you cant see the pin there at all.

Totally blind like the 13th at The Glen can be a bit of a lottery but no more so than second shots into an Alps hole or Perfection at North Berwick.

I'm very jealous of all these who start there post by mentioning there FIRST hole in one. I have at least managed one hole in one but it was 32 years ago. Since then I've managed to hit the pin (twice), leave the ball partly hanging over the edge of the hole (once) and lip out at least three times. Interestingly one of those was on the 13th at the Glen and I only knew how close I had come to holing it by the reaction of the fourball who were letting me play through were standing at the end of the tee watching. It was a bit like listening to a radio commentary on a football match with all the oohs and ahs as the ball lipped out.

Blind par 3's work on a course you have already played, first time round it's a lottery. I also like semi blind holes where the green is partly obscured or the landing area is obscured. The 13th at the Glen can come into this later category depending on the pin position and the tee. Similarly the 13th(?) at the Renaissance is a nice one as the front left quarter of the green is kind of obscured by the bunker short front left. You intuitively know to land the ball to the left as you can see that the rest of the green and the general lay of the land has a left to right tilt. Generally this idea tends to work on older courses where greens go with the flow of the land. More modern designs don't always do that.

Niall

[Dave McCollum]

I can’t remember if my first and only hole in one was the first or second time I played golf.  It was also on a new golf course that hadn’t opened for play yet, so it was a first for the course and probably the cheapest in golf history.  It was a blind surface.   I’d agree with those that seeing it go in makes little difference to the thrill of discovery.  In this case the gratification was even more delayed because I spent a few minutes searching the weeds in back of the green looking for the ball in its usual resting place.  Quite a hoot.  I was laughing so hard that I made a 13 on the next hole.   I played a few more times that summer and then gave up the game for 20 years.  It’s such an easy game that I’ve played the last 16 years waiting for a repeat.

[Wade Whitehead]

My brother and I always enjoyed playing at Holston Valley GC on the Virginia-Tennessee border, where the aiming point on the completely blind par-three third was an antennae on a double wide just over the course's boundary fence.

WW

[Simon Holt]

My first hole in one was at a blind par 3- the people on the next tee went crazy.  I went to the bar.

Its a pretty good hole too- its called the Redan.  I am surprised no one has used this hole as a template......

I don't really mind par 3s being blind, but it is nice to see some of the flag.  Every 3 being blind, or every 3 playing downhill, or all sloping right to left would of course be less interesting than if there is a nice balance of 3s.  I like the 10th at Friars Head and quite often I imagine you cant see the pin there at all.

Totally blind like the 13th at The Glen can be a bit of a lottery but no more so than second shots into an Alps hole or Perfection at North Berwick.

I'm very jealous of all these who start there post by mentioning there FIRST hole in one. I have at least managed one hole in one but it was 32 years ago. Since then I've managed to hit the pin (twice), leave the ball partly hanging over the edge of the hole (once) and lip out at least three times. Interestingly one of those was on the 13th at the Glen and I only knew how close I had come to holing it by the reaction of the fourball who were letting me play through were standing at the end of the tee watching. It was a bit like listening to a radio commentary on a football match with all the oohs and ahs as the ball lipped out.

Blind par 3's work on a course you have already played, first time round it's a lottery. I also like semi blind holes where the green is partly obscured or the landing area is obscured. The 13th at the Glen can come into this later category depending on the pin position and the tee. Similarly the 13th(?) at the Renaissance is a nice one as the front left quarter of the green is kind of obscured by the bunker short front left. You intuitively know to land the ball to the left as you can see that the rest of the green and the general lay of the land has a left to right tilt. Generally this idea tends to work on older courses where greens go with the flow of the land. More modern designs don't always do that.

Niall

Now that is weird!!  My 3rd, and so far my last hole in 1, was at the 13th at Renaissance but the pin was in the middle right of the green and I saw it go in.

[Don Hyslop]

The 17th hole at the Links of Crowbush Cove in Prince Edward Island is a totally blind par 3 that depending on your tee choice ranges between 88-113 yards. This Thomas McBroom designed layout has created a lot of controversy over this hole with opinion divided between love and absolute hatred.
Check out the video of the hole.
http://www.worldwidegolfguide.com/hgg_home/crowbush/pages/hole17.html

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

My first hole in one was at a blind par 3- the people on the next tee went crazy.  I went to the bar.

Its a pretty good hole too- its called the Redan.  I am surprised no one has used this hole as a template......

I don't really mind par 3s being blind, but it is nice to see some of the flag.  Every 3 being blind, or every 3 playing downhill, or all sloping right to left would of course be less interesting than if there is a nice balance of 3s.  I like the 10th at Friars Head and quite often I imagine you cant see the pin there at all.

Totally blind like the 13th at The Glen can be a bit of a lottery but no more so than second shots into an Alps hole or Perfection at North Berwick.

I'm very jealous of all these who start there post by mentioning there FIRST hole in one. I have at least managed one hole in one but it was 32 years ago. Since then I've managed to hit the pin (twice), leave the ball partly hanging over the edge of the hole (once) and lip out at least three times.

Niall

Niall,

Be patient. My 75 year old father had a hole in one on Sunday; it was his first in about 25 years. It was on the 135 yard 2nd at Gweedore (Donegal). Much of the green is not visible from the tee, so it took him a few minutes of searching before he found it in the hole.

[Carl Johnson]

I'm o.k. with a couple of blind par 3s.  My course has one (or two, depending on the tee used).  Although neither of these holes present much of a problem for the first-timer, others can, which again is o.k.  Not being able to see the ball go into hole for a one doesn't bother me either.  I'll take one any way I can (never had one yet).  The biggest problem I've had with blind par 3s is not being able to find a ball that misses the green.  No. 15 at Cruden Bay presented us with that problem.  The short par 3 (13?, the Sea Hole) at the Glen could present the same problem if you do not, as we did, send a look-out forward to follow the tee ball's descent.

[Sam Morrow]

I was a fan of the 3rd at Glenwood Springs GC in Colorado, blind par 3 over a public road, that's quirk.

[jonathan_becker]

I like them.   I think holes where you need to commit to a spot are really good tests of golf.   My one caveat, though, is that i think all blind holes should have at least one tee which is not blind for beginning golfers who may get scared off by the shot.



The 7th at Erin Hills (which i believe is a copy of a hole at lahnich) is one of my favorite holes.   Too bad it wont be played at the open and substitued with the Bye hole

It's too bad that's one of your favorites because I'm pretty sure that the dell hole is now gone for good.

[Niall C]

Simon

Were you the first to get one on that hole ? Also, how did it go in, did you land it short left and let it roll round to the right or was I talking rubbish again ?

Donal,

With a golf game like mine, patience is about my only strength.

One thing I've noticed though, is that my best efforts have been on holes that I'm playing for the first or second time, irrespective of whether the hole is blind. Must be something about the concentration levels going up on a strange course, either that or I strike it better as I'm not trying to give it a lash.

Niall

[Anthony Gray]

  The himalaya at Prestwick is alot of fun.

  Anthony

[Stewart Naugler]

#8 Maidstone

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