[Ben C. Dewar]

Just stumbled upon this site, thought you guys would like it.

www.viser.net/~mike/PacificDunes/index.htm

Regards

[Tim_Weiman]

Ben:

Thanks very much. For those of us who haven't made it to Bandon yet, it is a welcome collection of great photos.

[Tom Steenstrup]

As always with pictures from Pacific Dunes, awesome!

For those of you who have played there, how accurate is the outline of PD at the Bandon Dunes web site?

Tom

[Paul Turner]

Tom

The diagram is accurate.  Though to my eye, the 8th doesn't look quite right.  The hole turns gently right (see photo) but the drawing shows a straight hole.  I believe the green site was changed at some point?

[Doug Wright]

Just curious. Which way is the prevailing breeze at PD?

Doug

[Doug Wright]

Never mind, I found it on the GCA course profile:  "...the summer wind, which is out of the northwest...the winter...wind is from the southeast"

For those who have visited, then, does the course play easier in a summer wind or a winter wind?

Doug

[Gary Albrecht]

Tom, I agree with Paul that 8 is a little off.  The hole sort of fish hooks around the corner to the green.  You need to favor the left off the tee if the pin is cut right.  Also, there's a bowl-like effect off the right corner of the green, and balls will roll off the hill onto the green.

I think the 6th fairway is a little off--there's more fairway to the right as you approach the green and perhaps a little less fairway to the left.  There's also a large fairway bunker directly in the path of the ideal tee ball (IMHO).  Favoring right is the perfect spot for the tee ball based on the green's diagonal layout and the deep bunker on the left below the green.

I don't see the upper tee on 10.

Doug, I believe the prevailing wind is from the north.  For two days in May we played directly into 20-30 mph winds on 8 and 13, in particular.  Driver/driver on both holes from the back tees.

[Gary Albrecht]

Doug, I can't comment about PD as I only played it with winds out of the N/NW.  As for BD, I have played it in both winds.  I would never say that one was "easier" than the other, per se.  It just makes certain holes easier or harder, depending on their direction.  For example, I could barely reach the 5th green the first time I played it in May of 1999 from the tips.  Last September, I hit driver/wedge.  Number 16 was the reverse--I had a hard time reaching the fairway into the wind.

[Kyle Franz]

This is same map that I obtained while working there during construction -- It's just a copy of Doak & Co. preliminary routing. The location of the 8th green is correct for the most part, it's the fairway that's off. The fairway is slightly left of where it is drawn on the map and bleeds right about 250 or so yards from the tee. The greensite for the second hole was changed, it's shorter and slighty left of it's location on the map. Otherwise the general routing is correct. You can disregard the placement of the bunkers. Not to many actually wound up where they were originally drawn.
The winter prevailing is NOT from the southeast, it's from the southwest(Off the ocean). I've always felt like the summer prevailing wind (North) is slightly tougher (although the difference isn't immediately noticable). Ten holes play at least partially into the wind. Also the shots into the 5th, the upper green at the 9th, and especially the 16th, are pretty dicey going down wind with hard and fast summer playing conditions. The down wind holes and turf speed make the difference for me. In the winter only eight holes play into the wind and #3,#6,#12 play real short. I think it's also worth noting that the wind does not always blow from the direction it's supposed to. I played a number of rounds last winter in a north wind.  

[aclayman]

Just curious what the final numbers were?
Looks like a real minimalist.
What ya say boys under or over 5 mil?

Or is it like a womens age? Shhh

[Fluff]

I'm guessing 1/2 that.  $2.5 million.

[TEPaul]

It looks to me like the routing diagram is correct and accurate. The thing that might be throwing people off is the fairway lines (and sizes) are not representative of the way the course is. As mentioned above #8 fairway is much wider and is way out to the left. #3 and #12 fairways are also melded in places. #4 is much wider as is #15! There is basically about twice as much fairway acreage as appears on that routing diagram.

I asked what the total fairway acreage was although I forget now what it was. I estimated that the total fairway acreage was about 70 acres and was told by I think Tom Doak that it was more than that! Maybe 90, can't remember but it is a lot!

[Steve Frank]

Thanks, Ben, for alerting us all to these photos. They were splendid and really make you want to go to the effort to get there and play PD which I am doing in August.

The descriptions of each of the many photos were helpful too. I was glad to see that the word "tee" was used throughout rather than the incorrect and, according to the USGA, the disfavored "tee box" except for the notes about the photos for #14.

[Mike Erdmann]

Didn't realize I'd said "tee box" until Steve pointed it out.  It's fixed!  

[TEPaul]

Vis-a-vis that routing diagram, it is important to note how much wider the fairways are today than that diagram. The massive fairways are very important in the ultimate design and strategy of playing Pacific Dunes.

In my opinion, the effectiveness of those very large fairways is that they nicely accomodate all kinds of wind conditions but they also demand that the golfer closely scrutinize what is before him and the strategic way to go. There is little of the "road-map" effect at Pacific Dunes and that is a wonderful thing!

The best personal example I noticed would be #6! I hit an iron off that tee and a good one but I purposely went well left to avoid the bunkering and danger to the right. All of the openness of the fairway left lulled me into a false sense of security and no sooner was my ball in the air that I realized I'd just been hoodwinked. I really hadn't scrutinized the green and its orientation enough before hitting a tee shot.

I hit a good sand wedge into the green but too far right (on purpose) because it looked like so much danger going at the pin or even a bit left of it. With even a couple of good shots the massive fairway to the left (and the green orientation) strategically caught me and I payed the price even with good shots.

If the fairway hadn't gone that far out to the left that design probably would have just dictated itself to me instead of lulling me into a mistake. This is really good stuff, and it all started with a wide and accomodating fairway.

#6 PD, by the way, is going to be considered one of the very best very short par 4s in the world--there is no doubt about that!!

[Tom Steenstrup]

What's the pace of play like at PD? I usually play at a links course in western Denmark, and the long dunes rough there tends to slow down things quite a bit on busy days. From the pics, it looks to me like there's plenty opportunity to spend 5 minutes here and there to look for a ball lost in the "unkept" areas. Or are the fairways so wide that this doesn't happen much?

The course really is fascinating. I tried to compare the pics from 6 with your description, Tom Paul. I believe I see why you made a bad choice of the tee...  

Tom

[Tom_Doak]

As Kyle pointed out, the map above is my pre-construction plan for the course.  (They added the alternate 9th green to it when we decided to build it.)  The map is fairly accurate for the routing -- the only real changes were to move the 2nd green to the south 40 yards, shift the 8th fairway to the left, and find the best locations for the 18th tees and the green [slightly south of where I drew it].

I just received an as-built, GPS map of the course in the mail, and can share these details:

Actual fairway acreage:  44.13 acres.  We probably grassed 75-80 acres in all, including roughs, greens and tees.

Average green size: just under 7000 sq ft.  The largest is the upper ninth (9120 sq ft); the smallest is the eleventh (4270 sq ft).  The sixth green is second-smallest, and not very receptive from the left, as TE Paul found out.

The pace of play on opening day (200 golfers) slowed from 4:20 for the first few groups, down to about 5 hours for the slowest groups.  Everyone was too busy gawking, or it might have been a bit faster; but I guess the scenery will always slow down play a bit there.

Yes, there is some looking for balls in the rough involved -- especially on topped tee shots, I've discovered.  If you hit the driver in the air, seven of the fairways are over 200 feet wide in the landing areas.

I personally think the course is 1-2 shots harder in the north (summer) wind.  My best scores were all when it blew the other way.

[Ben C. Dewar]

Tim and Steve,
Happy you enjoyed them, I knew they would be popular here.

[Mike Erdmann]

Tom S., pace of play has always been a problem at Bandon Dunes.  A 4.5 - 5 hour round is unfortunately the norm rather than the exception.  On Sunday at Pacific Dunes, we teed off at 9:00am, kept right up with the group ahead of us, and still finished at just under 5 hours.  As Tom Doak indicated, I'm sure there was a lot of gawking that morning (myself included, as you can see from the photos I took), but I think the wind contributes to a slower round.  I wish that Bandon Dunes management would implement a rule like they have in Scotland where you have have a verifiable handicap of say 20 in order to play during busier times.  

[Tom Steenstrup]

Mike, am I understanding you correct? Anybody can get on the course at any time? Never picked up a golf club before - no problem, feel free to tee off?

No wonder things are slow at times.

Is this the norm at all public courses in the US?

When I lived in Indiana, I remember seeing people with no golfing experience teeing off on public courses, but I figured it was because the courses were pretty low-key (cheap) and forgiving. But, I guess this applies more broadly...?

Tom

[Mike Erdmann]

Sure, if you've got $150 then you've got a tee time.

I can't think of a single public-access course anywhere in the country that requires anything more than the ability to pay the greens fee (other than dress code requirements).

[Michael Moore]

Some public courses in heavily populated areas now require a deposit on a credit card for weekend tee times. An unusual practice, but necessary at some places from what I hear about people not showing up.

[Peter Galea]

Michael, the reason for credit card deposits is people "shopping" tee times. They will make a time at a course, then call around to other courses to get a more desirable time. When they secure the "better" time, they often do not call the pro shop of the first course and cancel, that shop is left with an open time. Usually if the slot can be filled with walk-ons the card will not be charged. Similar to reserving a room at a hotel.
Like it or not golf is a business.

[aclayman]

I just saw One of the people who played Pacific Dunes on that opening day. He may have been rather unnerved that I had known the course better from these pictures than he had from playing it twice.

I was amused to say the least.

His opinion was high but seemed to have an attachment to Bandon Dunes, prefering it. He did make some comment about crossing some other teeing ground   to get to the next hole, and how unusual that was for him. I have no idead what he meant but perhaps some who have treked the track   can attest?

[Mike Erdmann]

If I remember correctly, I think you cross the 5th tee when walking from the 11th green to the 12th tee.

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