[T_MacWood]

Matt
Who said anything about either or?  I simply asked you to prioritize level tees in the greater scheme of things. You said they fell right after putting surfaces. I'm not asking you to chose one or the other -- level tees instead of firm conditions, appearance of hazards or non-intruding trees -- I'm simply asking why level tees are more important than those other considerations.

In my mind greens that require a shoulder turn and level tees fall into the same catagory - a minor consideration. Neither fundamentally effects the play of an outstanding design. Afterall many of these courses were originally set up with slowish greens and perfectly level tees were hardly commonplace -- but one can still appreciate a great design with either condition. On the other hand soft fairways, poor hazards and intruding trees can completely destroy a design.

[aclayman]

Matt- I can't say that iv'e read every word that you have posted, but, it is painfully obvious that you really don't like unlevel tees.

It would appear that we have a topic that common ground is unattainable. (Perhaps the politicians should take in a lesson here.) Issues such as abortion, like flat tees, are clearly a matter of personal preference and tolerance, have no buisness being part of the platform. Freedom to choose is fundamental to a democratic process. Whether you are pebble beach or john q muni, if you choose not to flaten the tees on several holes, doesn't mean they are neglected or deprioritized. It just means that you have  choices.

As a self-taught hack, I grew up playing the banana ball, after a zillion or so holes I noticed that anytime I had an unlevel tee where the ball was above my feet, I found I hit a powerful golf shot with a slight draw. That observation led to my understanding of my game. The realization that my perspective is/was askew and has caused me to know my game so well that improving has been a constant, although relative.

So, I love slanty tees, they have helped me have a deeper understanding of my game and my swing. Perhaps you explain your justification for your preference, past the statement that they aren't fair. Which IMHO is not applicable.

[Matt_Ward]

Rich:

I agree with you regarding neglect. In most cases -- tees have been neglected because of other priorities or because the superintendent / staff have been inattentive. The next time you play a highly rated course take a good look and see how much neglect is present. You'll be surprised to see there's plenty at many different courses.

If you think it would be "creative" for an architect to deliberately set up holes with slanted tees I urge you to enjoy them when created. I'll be taking a pass.

Tom:

Conditioning of all types is, in my mind, the final element, that elevates a course above and beyond others. The attention to detail is what allows all the attributes originally designed by the architect to come to the forefront.

Keep in mind attention to detail does not mean spending big time $$ on the scale of Augusta National in order to achieve these things. It's clear people put a fundamental priority on the state of the greens at any facility. Certainly, greens have a huge impact on the ultimate opinion people will form after playing. I say -- just add tees to the list of considerations regarding overall course grooming. Tees are NOT more important, however, they should be elevated as an EQUAL  concern to the items you mentioned.

From what you have written I guess this is a concern that matters less to you than I. That's your opinion and I respect it though I disagree.

Tom, I grew up on public courses and many of them had unique design features which were clearly special. I did appreciate them. However, I also know that with some attention to detail these same elements that have held the course back could be changed and the qualities of the design would be enhanced many times over.

Conditioning is an element that I include in any course assessment. Conditioning has a place in differentiating those courses that are not prepared properly. Yes, it would be nice to say "what if" the course did this and "what if" they did this. When I rate for GD I cannot operate on a "what if" basis. I rate on a "what is" reality. And, conditioning, is part of that equation.

Clearly, you feel otherwise. A "great course" designation by my definition cannot be applied if key conditioning elements are lacking. Level tees are part of that. Playing a tee shot with the ball considerably above or below your feet is not appropriate and in my opinion not golf as it is played TODAY.

How Tom Morris and his minions played the game one hundred years ago is not relevant to today's game. Golf has clearly evolved and the role of tees has been a part of that evolution.

acalyman:

A level tee takes away the very thing you mention: which is to artificially provide for a player an easier way to play a certain shot (i.e. a draw with the ball above your feet, a fade with the ball below your feet, etc).

Ask yourself this when you go to the driving range have you ever played off a mat that was deliberately slanted? Most, if not all, are completely level. I guess if you want to practice this shot at the range you should bring a cereal box and place it in whatever position you can to duplicate the slant you want!

The game of golf as we play it TODAY involves level teeing area for all hitting positions. In my review of courses I do place some value on this -- you may place a lesser amount or none at all. That's what makes the world interesting -- an honest difference of opinion.

[T_MacWood]

Matt
I take it from your answer/non-answer that perhaps you have re-thought your original order of priorities -- fair enough.

[Bill_Coggins]

Matt,

You seem to be dead set on the notion that the teeing ground must be flat.  Yet, for the life of me, I cannot find any rule stating that it must be flat.

I would think it an interesting variation to increase the area of the teeing ground, then set about contouring it like a green.  Let the player pick his/her slope (assuming the markers are wide enough).

Alas, you can be sure that, as a super, I would be cursed.  For one day I would most assuredly place the cup and flag in the greenside bunker.

I can understand one's complaint from poor conditioning causing "unlevel" teeing ground, but otherwise you are left with whining and carping about unfair a word with no home on a golf course.

At one time, long time ago, golf was a window into the character of the player.  Perhaps Old Tom is long dead, but has the nature of golf changed that much?

[The Reider]

Its great to read all this crying BS about tees. For those of us in the business, its usually the greens. Wow, something new.
Introverted, hell you would be to if an insurance salesmen, banker, or anyone else for that matter was telling you how to agronomically handle a golf course. Why dont all of you get your asses out of bed at 5:30 tommorow morning and go work on your course. Then, at 7:00 that night go to the greens and grounds meeting and listen to that crap. Oh, who cares that you have a degree in this stuff, that damn banker knows more than you. And go fix that waterfall by tommorow that you didnt want anything to do with in the first place, but that damn banker did because it was peerrty. As for the tees, a good topdressing program will be sufficient. Oh hell, I forgot my budget got cut by 50k so the clubhouse could get new glasses and silverware. KMA

[Ed_Baker]

The Reider,

As you have the ability to communicate in a sarcastic tone,it would stand to reason that the same ability could be employed in a professional manner with your Board and committee.Have you tried it in writing listing your concerns for the golf course?

If in fact your budget is/was cut by $50,000.00 then several things are obvious.

1. The golf course is not the primary focus at your club.
2.The budget process is subjective and faulty.
3. You have put yourself in a no win situation trying to produce a product that you don't posess the resources to create.
4. Your bitterness and contempt for your employers has destoyed your ability to be proactive and professional.
5. Your opinion of your abilities is considerably greater than your actual abilities.

If #5 above were not true you would have tendered your resignation the instant the board cut your budget by that amount and demanded the same product.
A superintendent of superior ability would only stay employed in the situation you describe only after he documented in writing what the negative effects of the budget cut would be exactly,i.e. $50,000.00 represents 5000 man hours,which means I will have x less people doing a,b,c,tasks weekly resulting in a deterioration of d,e,f areas.
If this is a temporary measure do to unforcasted club expense for this season only, then fine we will ALL have to live with it.But my staff and I can not be held to the same accountability without those funds.Period.

Only a man with average or less ability would beat his brains out in an untenable situation. Either "the banker and insurance salesmen" are idiots or..... draw your own conclusion. Now,KMA.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom: I have not changed my priorities -- I have simply stated that level tees are on par (no pun intended) with the other concerns you have mentioned. Having level tees should not be relegated to the rear position of conditioning concerns as they are at many clubs / courses.

Bill: Enjoyed your comments but I ask you to join the modern version of the game. You say there is no rule which states tee height. Bill, let me point out, that there is no rule concerning nearly all aspects of conditioning. There is no rule regarding green height as well.

What's needed is a little bit of common sense and fair play. If you think hitting off areas akin to baseball pitching mounds (aka teeing grounds) makes perfect sense I say enjoy them to the max.

In my opinion, a level teeing area provides a common starting point which is equal in terms of its presentation (level) and therefore affords no player a built-in advantage with a tee that slopes in one direction or the other.

To the superintendents who have posted without identifying themselves let me say that I fully aware of what demands are placed on your time and what $$ you have to use. Much of the blame for unlevel tees rests with greens committee people who can't grow tomatoes in their backyard yet are giving dictates on various items not directly related to the course. That is truly a shame and a disserive as this usually forces the superintendent(s) to have less time on key turf areas -- tees being one of them.

[aclayman]

Matt- I've heard it more times, in critical situations, "I didn't hit it like that on the range" from players who don't have the creativity to manufacture a shot from an unlevel lie. And here in the kingdom a level lie is scarce. Even the GD #1 ranked PBGL hasn't or can't get every tee level.  

[The Reider]

Dear Ed,

Thanks for taking the line and sinker. Your reply was a tad different than I expected but I made my point, though somewhat extreme. The situation presented was fictional but not far off base. By using extreme situations one tends to draw greater understandings at the time.

I relate this back to a story told by Norman Vincent Peale. The moral of the story is to always put on the other shoe. I find that most golfers dont put this shoe on, they simply complain until the entire horse gets the crap beat out it.

If one is so intrigued why certain conditions are the way they are, first take a look around you, what is the mentality of the club if the case. Secondly,take the initiative to go talk to the super. He or she would probly be appreciative of concerns if handled in a non finger pointing way. These people are professionals. They want to communicate with you, its in their best interest, they may develop a true allie from that point.

Matt,

Your last post, last paragraph hits the nail on the head. There are so many intangibles that figure into the daily maintenance of a golf course, both physically and financially. If your livelihood depended on the weather, pests, soil conditions, water quality, and so on not to mention the banker and insurance man that somehow nows more than you do, how would you or anyone one else here feel. Personally,we do handle these people with respect and relate our concerns in the most professional way, heck I might need a loan after I tender my resignation as eddie puts it. They are people to.

Put your feet in the other shoes, I do.

Eddie, good night and sleep tight.

[Matt_Ward]

The Reider:

Appreciate your comments. Many superintendents are besieged by a number of work items listed by well meaning (I'll give them the benefit of a doubt) but many times clueless greens committee people.

Clearly, only the specific clubs / superintendents know full well what is taking place. However, in all my travels as a GD panelist I am amazed by the full detail given to items NOT REMOTELY connected to the golf course. I can only imagine the total manpower hours and $$ that have been allocated for these nonessential items.

It's time for clubs to get to the basics and support professional superintendents in tending to matters that bear directly to the playing of the game. Level tees in my mind is one of those concerns and as I've said over and over in this thread tees are usually the orphans of course maintenance.

Best of luck to all superintendents in dealing with people who are quick to often comment about items they know so little about. I wonder how they would feel if you walked into their office and offered advice on how to practice medicine, law, etc.

[The Reider]

My point exactly. Thanks Matt.

[Ed_Baker]

The Reider,
Not only the line and sinker,the hook too,Ouch!

My point,obviously not well stated, is that the situation you described should never get to that stage(hypothetical or not)A superintendent should be supported by his board and committee.The support is the result of effective communication between the super and his committee and board, which would include a clear operating paradigm and definition of product and resulting budget. If the superintendent is skilled and professional there is a common goal created between himself,his staff and the green committee at the start of each season with each group comfortable with the expense needed to reach that goal.Once the situation becomes adversarial,there is no chance of success.A budget cut of the magnitude you described is just not acceptable.It would become impossible for the superintendent to do his job.That fault lies squarely on the Board and committee.The superintendents that I have had the pleasure of working with,would have effectively communicated the fact that the product would suffer to an unacceptable level and if the board went ahead with the cut,he was no longer responsible for the result,or culpable!I think maybe that was unclear in my post,I wasn't advocating "seeking" the superintendents resignation.I was suggesting that an exceptional superintendent would never allow the situation to deteriorate to the stage you described.If waterfalls and plantings were more important than the golf course, that philosophical difference would be apparent from the get go.This situation didn't happen overnight. If the superintendent strongly disagreed with the focus or direction of the club and his views were constantly ignored,then he is in an untenable situation and would seek a new posistion voluntarily,where his talents would be appreciated.

The "uniformed" Green Committee is probably the most common obstacle in the profession and the most difficult to overcome.It requires the constant education of new people everytime the board changes.Very difficult.

How's that Reider,I maybe didn't get the other guys shoe all the way on,but I do understand his plight,no?

Thanks for the comments,
Eddie

[rj bay]

Level tees, kind of a good thing! Just from a simplistic view, the level areas on any teeing ground will be the most utilized, promoting wear. In that wear is not good, it stands to reason that one should attempt to make more areas of the tees flat or level to promote usage. Thus good GCA would promote the building of level tees for this reason alone. I gotta go with Mr. Ward on this one!

[Matt_Ward]

In this long thread there were some comments concerning the validity of level tees and what, if anything, the great designers of the past had to say on the topic.

In "Golf Has Never Failed Me," the commentaries of the renowned Donald J. Ross, Ross mentions the following (excerpt from p.126).

"There are two, and only two, inflexible rules for playing out a tee: It should be big and the top must be PERFECTLY LEVEL (my emphasis added)."

For those who think my "pet peeves" are simple whining I ask you to consider the feelings of Donald Ross. His knowledge of design clearly surpasses mine and I am eager to use him as my source.

If others can quote other renown architects of his caliber that state having unlevel tees is preferable please include the reference.

Thanks ...

[T_MacWood]

Matt
Thanks for repeating what I wrote over a week ago(8/11). Ross was the only architect who briefly touched on this very important subject.

As I wrote at the time you need to study the photgraphic evidence in the same book, its obvious that 'perfectly flat' to Ross may have fallen short of your surveyer's definition.

Do you believe that claiming your pet peeve is trivial is the same as promoting the opposite?

That's like saying since I think the WNBA is boring, I naturally dislike basketball, women or sport all together.

Interesting logic.

Pet Peeve #4 -- Reserecting past pet peeves for no apparent reason.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

I understand what the words "perfectly level" mean. Do you?

What Ross wrote (as you correctly stated you added in an earlier thread), is a concern that I have. You might think it's overdone / silly / not worth your precious time, etc, etc, etc. I respect your right to disagree - but when I rate a course I look at the small details and see how they mesh into the larger picture. Level tees are part of that equation -- just behind the importance of properly prepared greens. Ross even stated that how tees are prepared goes a long way in enjoying all of the many good things a course can provide to the golfer. I agree.

When courses have mega $$$ and cannot take care of an elementary detail as level tees that tells me something. What it tells you or even if you care about such details only you know that answer.

If you think hitting off pitching mounds is appropriate or that shotmaking is furthered from such conditions I say knock yourself out and enjoy them -- there's plenty to choose from in this country. I believe otherwise.

Conditioning is part of the total package in looking at any course. To simply look at the layout without any attention to the conditioning is beyond me. Architecture is about getting the details right. Level tees are one of those details!

Again for the upteeenth time I'm not saying ANGC conditioning just a reasonably level place to play one's tee shot. I guess that's too much to ask for right?

[RJ_Daley]

I had avoided this topic because it sounded like much ado about nothing.  But, since it is taking on major length purportions, and as a resident GCA'er I have to keep up the responsibility of shooting my mouth off at every big deal so I can't let it slip by.

Here on the frozen tundra, one of our courses is open any time if turf can be seen.  They close off the regular tees along about November 1 and for first weeks in March and April depending when snow melts.  Usually, the temporary tees are marked forward of the regular teeing grounds and makes the course play roughly like a ladies course.  Some are placed at same distances but at weird angles to fairway.  These tees are as you can imagine every kind of slope, lie etc.  But, we all tee it up from same place and it is the same fun game for everyone.  Sometimes we have the guy who won the previous hole or is holding the rabbit, to pick where to tee off.  That is fun too.  

This whole discussion is to my mind slightly away from the point I think about most often, and that is the construction of the tee relative to it's location and use/wear and tear factor.  Teeing grounds that provide a bit of respite from the sun by location near a good shade tree complex is one of the lovely things about parkland golf.  In the treeless prairies that I like, I often thought it would be nice to build a sort of arbor with vining plants if the climate can support it for some shade.  

But, too often, the lack of sunlight in these lovely shaded alcoves of parkland courses where tees are nestled in, cause wet soggy and sunlight deprivation leading to disease.  Combine that with an undersized tee getting way too much wear and poor drainage and you get a disease ridden hump of rutted up crap.  But, if we are all teeing up on the same hump of crap, it is eqaul, and therefore fair, just not pleasantly perfect...

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