[TEPaul]

Jeff:

You hit the nail on the head on your post on the areas of Cowboys that were perceived as "over the edge" from that hockey fan pal of yours. Just keep building them!

I've never been sure where these attitudes about "fairness" and "over the top" came from but it seems to have started in America and started creeping around from there.

There are certainly tons of areas like that at Pine Valley, NGLA, probably Merion etc and maybe that would be the best way to answer that guy!

I view areas like that as sort of an off-shoot of Max Behr's "line or Charm" ideas and what it communicates to a golfer. Maybe it's a bit in the converse but areas like that help a lot in creating the strategic implications of a golf course. If they really are severe and such they simple radiate their effectiveness in the mind of a golfer. In other words steer very clear of them maybe not at all cost but certainly at  some real cost!

[Archie]

Gotta think that their is a subtle difference between good greens that border on over the top and goofy greens that just are unplayable. With the risk of being redundant, Pine Valleys' greens can be brutally hard at first glance, but if you are skillful there is a way to two putt. That is the difference, in that bad greens have no solution, regardless of skill. Obviously a poorly placed pin by a groggy or sadistic maintenance worker can cause havoc at times, but this is an anomaly, which can be addressed thru education. I am still leaning to over the top, or better yet hanging on the rim can be really good. We golfers in the States need more of the Irish/Scottish acceptance of luck and difficuly as part of the game. I am constantly amazed at twisted Dune where a golfer hits it radically off line and expects to A) fnd his ball B) have a shot and most amazingly C) have a good lie in what is obviously the wrong place to be!

[Tom_Doak]

I was driving Crenshaw over to Crystal Downs a couple of years ago and talking about the greens on the way there and he said:

"You know, on nearly all of my favorite greens there is some chance of putting off them."

I just laughed at that.  I thought there was nobody else but the two of us in the car who really thought that way.

At the same time, I've learned over the years that sometimes less is more.  Pacific Dunes' greens are starting to get up to speed and they are the best set we've done, but they're much more subtle about their challenges.  The several greens which have slight crowns in them are my favorites.

[TEPaul]

Tom Doak:

Your remarks about your conversation with Crenshaw are interesting and truly does get to the heart of things.

I'm not too clear though, if you are saying that you think the example of possibly putting off a green (with a poor or not well thought out putt) is something that you think is a valid architectural thing to design and recommend on the maintenance of greens. You say you have come to think that less is more. By that do you mean you have changed your mind about that conversation with Crenshaw or are you talking about ways to design the possibility of putting off of greens in a subtler ways?

This is a really important distinction to make and I would use a single example and ask you what you would recommend. It's an apropos example too since the green is #3 at Stonewall which is a basic recreation of #1 Crystal Downs (where you and Crenshaw were going).

A few times in tournament conditions (higher green speeds than normally maintained) I've seen the rear left pin position on #3 green do just that. Both chips and putts that were not well executed would roll left, catch the slope and go off the green.

I have also seen (on here) that you have said that you think that Stonewall is sometimes maintaining green speeds that are too high for what you designed and that they should be slowed down. I also believe that the possiblility of putting off a green with a poorly executed putt is as much or more the result of maintenance practices as it is a design question.

So I would ask you to clarify what you do feel about this question or situation today. It is certainly and interesting one from the perspective of an architect! Personally, I believe (and probably many on here do too) that the possibility of putting off a green is a valid situation for a golf course and can create some huge and meaningful strategic implications. I also realize that it can create a huge hue and cry when it happens.

So what do you really feel about this now? I'm not talking here about a pin placement that is completely over the top. We all probably know what the real definition of an "unfair" pin position is and how to recognize it. That pin postion rear left at Stonewall was very doable--you just had to be quite careful how you did it--which was to be quite defensive about chipping and putting to it!! I never had any problem with that, and again, I would say it had very significant strategic implications. I felt that way then and do now but there were plenty of competitors who didn't share my opinion.

So what's your opinion on this kind of thing and on that specific example?

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