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Mike_Cirba

In praise of deep fairway bunkers
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2001, 07:33:00 PM »
Ron Kern,

It's great to hear your philosophical approach to bunkering so closely mirrors many of our own.  Keep plugging and pushing that envelope!  I'm hoping to make it to your Purgatory course sometime next year...how close is it to Victoria?  

I'd also like to say that I think I speak for others in encouraging your continued participation on this discussion group, as time permits.  Ask Jeff Brauer...we really aren't as zealotous as our reputation and you might find that it's mutually beneficial.  


Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
In praise of deep fairway bunkers
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2001, 09:17:00 PM »
I like deep, penal bunkers, as well -- though I agree with the comments that not every bunker on the golf course ought to require a stepladder to get in and out of.

Arthur Hills has designed unique (to me)fairway bunkers on his Chaska Town Course in Chaska, Minn. (near Hazeltine, with which it will share qualifying rounds during the 2006 U.S. Amateur.) Rather than burrowing deep into the ground to trap errant shots, most of Hills' fairway bunkers are almost completely flat -- but with a steep grass-covered mound on the far side of the bunker than creates the same effect as having to clear a high lip. Your ball tends to roll through to the end of the sand and come to rest just short of the mound. From that lie, your only shot is a wedge, regardless of how far you are from the green.

Regarding the allegation that "feminization" of golf has been a chief cause of the reduction in bunker depth: I can't dispute BCrosby's first-hand claim that he knows of a course where women had bunkers removed, but that must be a remarkably egalitarian club compared to most I'm familiar with. Women continue to be snubbed and ignored in myriad ways at most golf clubs; my wife's golf league can't even get the main dining room for their annual banquet, much less get a bunker removed. It's my experience that men do every bit as much whining about "unfair" hazards and conditions as women, and they have far more clout.

By the way, a bit of "feminization" that wouldn't do the game one bit of harm would be to get rid of those dinky little ponds in front of tees on par 4s and 5s, which are designed to do just one thing: frustrate and embarrass novice golfers -- including but not limited to women -- who tend to top their shots. Why, except in the name of cruelty, further penalize a 20-yard foozle?

"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
In praise of deep fairway bunkers
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2001, 08:43:00 PM »
There is 100% agreement on the depth of fairway bunkers here, but you wouldn't get consent from many out there especially seniors.  A couple of years ago I had Dan Proctor of BunkerHill, Sand Hills and Nebraska fame, built some fairway bunkers on two par 4's at a 9 hole course in Palmdale, CA.  They were deep, about 3 feet to clear the lip.  One day I was out there (I had heard there were many complaints) and a couple of seniors came over and told me they were too deep.  I said that I want to increase their enjoyment of the game.  When they were standing on the tee I wanted them to think that they must avoid these and hit a good shot, and when they did, they would be happy.  Their reply was that fairway bunkers are not deep at other "good" courses in the area.  I replied that fairway bunkers at great course like Riviera, Oakmont and St. Andrews are deep.  They said "I doubt that."  I said I know because I have played them.  They went off unhappy.  Seniors.  So then I put out some large posters with quotes from Golden Age designers supporting penal bunkers.  But unfortunately golfers seldom read signs or posters.
Actually one valid complaint which seniors may have is when they are real deep, steps should be built for getting in and out.  Those rigid hips.
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

TEPaul

In praise of deep fairway bunkers
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2001, 12:07:00 PM »
Ron Kern:

It certainly sounds like the bunkers at Olympia Fields are much deeper and much more penal but it also sounds to me from the way you're describing the set up of the fairways and flanking bunkers (that are penal and not strategic) that Old Joe Dey himself may have been reincarnated and we are starting on the early modern age U.S. Open narrowed down set up all over again!

LynnShac:

Sounds like you tried everything on those old seniors and the bunker depths and nothing's worked so far. Here's your last and best shot to quiet them down. Tell them if they don't shut up on the subject that next year the bunkers are going to be twice as deep!


TEPaul

In praise of deep fairway bunkers
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2001, 12:25:00 PM »
LynnShac:

I just wanted you to know that I was over at Applebrook the other day and I saw that nice waitress who came up to me and said; "That big tall man you were over here with a while ago was really upset that we didn't have Doctor Pepper's wasn't he?"

I told her he sure as hell was and he said he's never coming back to Applebrook again and likely would never return to the Eastern United States because of such a discouraging situation!

She did seem to perk up a little when I told her that maybe somehow I could get him to change his mind since he really liked the deep fairway bunkers. Maybe perked up isn't quite the right word because she didn't say anything when she walked away shaking her head.


Patrick_Mucci

In praise of deep fairway bunkers
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2001, 03:45:00 PM »
Rick Shefchick,

At two clubs I am very familiar with,
whatever the women want, they get,
despite the fact that they are not members.

Erosion and pillow talk remain two of the most powerful forces found in nature, especially human nature.

Haven't you noticed all those cute flower beds around tees and other areas ?


Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
In praise of deep fairway bunkers
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2001, 10:27:00 PM »
Patrick -- I certainly have noticed the flower beds. A waste of money, in my estimation, unless the rest of the course is perfect. But I always figured the flowers were just a club's way of buying off the women so they wouldn't have to give up some bunkers.

Rick

"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
In praise of deep fairway bunkers
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2001, 03:47:00 AM »
Rick -

Never, never underestimate the power of the wife of the greens committee chairman.

Bob


Patrick_Mucci

In praise of deep fairway bunkers
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2001, 04:04:00 AM »
BCrosby,

You've got that right, but,
Add one, the President's spouse as well.

The composition of those playing today, differs greatly from the composition of those playing in the 40's and 50's, and the link to penal Scottish golf is now so far removed from the current generation that deep fairway bunkers, which I love, are becoming relics.


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