[Jim_Michaels]

I think somebody posted it before, but this is so laughable that it is worth another look. Look how many courses have more tradition than Shinnecock Hills.

         Tradition
         Points
1   Oakmont      8.55
2   Merion      8.45
3   Country Club      8.34
4   Oakland Hills      8.26
5   Pebble      8.23
6   Augusta      8.11
7   Inverness      7.36
8   Cherry Hills      7.31
9   Baltusrol      7.31
10   WFW      7.24
11   Pinehurst      7.12
12   Riviera      7.12
13   Cypress      7.11
14   Oak Hill      7.07
15   Southern Hills      6.87
16   Olympic      6.79
17   Olympia Fields      6.75
18   Medinah      6.74
19   Colonial      6.74
20   Pine Valley      6.68
21   Canterbury      6.54
22   Garden City      6.50
23   Interlachen      6.47
24   Shinnecock      6.46
25   Scioto      6.40
26   Homestead      6.38
27   Wannamoisett      6.08
28   Chicago      5.94
29   Seminole      5.93
30   Baltimore      5.85
31   LACC      5.83
32   Plainfield      5.79
33   QR      5.73
34   Salem      5.61
35   San Francisco      5.56
36   Aronimink      5.54
37   NGLA      5.48
38   Congressional      5.45
39   Kittansett      5.31
40   Hazeltine      5.27
41   Prairie Dunes      5.18
42   Spyglass      5.05
43   Maidstone      5.05
44   Harbour Town      5.03
45   WFE      4.95
46   Peachtree      4.87
47   Muirfield Village      4.82
48   Point o Woods      4.82
49   Bellerive      4.81
50   Laurel Valley      4.79
51   Somerset      4.71
52   East Lake      4.68
53   Cog Hill      4.67
54   Milwaukee      4.64
55   Dunes      4.45
56   Desert Forest      4.38
57   Crooked Stick      4.24
58   NCR      4.22
59   Crystal Downs      4.20
60   Butler National      4.20
61   Atlanta      4.11
62   Old Warson      4.02
63   Pine Tree      4.00
64   TPC      3.80
65   TGC      3.79
66   Stanwich      3.76
67   Jupiter Hills      3.70
68   Pasatiempo      3.70
69   Bethpage      3.68
70   Camargo      3.68
71   Mauna Kea      3.52
72   Shoal Creek      3.51
73   Fishers      3.50
74   Sahalee      3.47
75   Shoreacres      3.43
76   Eugene      3.43
77   Greenville      3.27
78   Castle Pines      3.00
79   Honors      2.75
80   Long Cove      2.70
81   Grandfather      2.36
82   Valhalla      1.97
83   Blackwolf Run      1.88
84   Forest Highlands      1.79
85   Prince      1.77
86   Shadow Creek      1.74
87   Black Diamond      1.70
88   Wade Hampton      1.67
89   Ocean Forest      1.67
90   Sycamore Hills      1.47
91   Sand Hills      1.15
92   Double Eagle      1.15
93   Ocean      0.89
94   Estancia      0.70
95   Quarry      0.65
96   Whistling Straits      0.60
97   Victoria      0.59
98   Bandon      0.48
99   Rich Harvest      0.45
100   Pac Dunes      0.42

In a ranking where one point can account for 15-20 spots of variation in the list, this category carries a ridiculous amount of weight. Ron Whitten where are you to answer for this silliness?

[ChasLawler]

Could someone please explain to me why these rankings are such a sore subject for so many on here? Of all places, this would seem a place where these rankings should be completely ignored - regardless of the criteria that tabulates them.

[DMoriarty]

Could someone please explain to me why these rankings are such a sore subject for so many on here? Of all places, this would seem a place where these rankings should be completely ignored - regardless of the criteria that tabulates them.

You are right they should be completely ignored.  But unfortunately, golfers and developers dont ignore them.  So we cant ignore them no matter how ridiculous they may be.

[John_Conley]

Jim:

You are like me in that you don't agree with the Golf Digest criterion of Tradition.  Take it out and you'll like the list you are left with.  Sand Hills registers about #40 on their list, but anyone who golfs sees it for what it is - one of our nation's elite designs.

You have no real grounds to argue with the result when you don't agree with the criteria.  (Use a Miss America analogy if you want.  If I prefer naughty girls who cook to a violin-strumming, singing vegetarians with fake smiles who am I to say THEY'RE wrong.)

[klangone]

According to Matt Ward.....Dallas National should probably be in the top ten.  It is of course the best course in the country.........

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

I am also against "tradition" being used as a prop to keep old time courses in the mix. If people don't "trust" the results of its panel then get new panelists -- just don't insert
"adjustments" that have nothing done with the inherent design of the course IMHO.

klangone:

You need to re-read what people post not what you surmise.

You're the one who broadsided Dallas National without ever providing any specifics -- save the tired bomblasts about what Tom Fazio routinely fails to do.

I asked this before and you conveniently slitherted away -- have you ever played Dallas National? If you have -- can you tell me specifically what are the deficiencies from any perspective you wish to take? Please knock yourself out because I'm all ears.

I never said Dallas National is among my ten best personal courses. I did say that given the amount of TF courses I have played (roughly 40-50) I would put it at the very top either just ahead one other -- Glenwild in Park City, UT.

I salute TF and the folks involved at Dallas National because you have a course that clearly leapfrogs everything else in the Lone Star State. The site is clearly dynamic and a good number of the holes are extremely well done -- starting with the par-3 5th and integrate the terrain as a central and recurring theme.

What's clear to me is that if you took the name of TF off of DN and replaced it with a "more favored architect" the net result would be certain people jumping in front of each year proclaiming it is the greatest thing going since sliced bread. How nice. How utterly transparent. I'm not a shill for any architect but when people do outstanding work I salute the product. That might be a formula you wish to follow.

[Jim_Michaels]

The chances of anybody's mistaking Dallas National for anybody's work other than Mr. Fazio are zero. The problem with your reasoning Matt is that you really believe people's impressions are based on who did it rather than what they did. Fazio is unmistakable. As is Rees. I don't like what they do. Jack is unmistakable. I don't like what he does either. The work of the most favored architects I generally like, because I like what I see and feel on the ground.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Great speech -- how bout the novel idea of people actually doing the shoe leather and seeing / playing the courses in question rather than just spitting out the same invective that Nicklaus, Fazio, Rees, et al of that group NEVER get it but others on the "most favored" listing ALWAYS do? I guess it's always vanilla on one side and chocolate on the other.

I'll clue you in on the idea of courses looking the same -- visit just about any Raynor or Banks design and the similarities are there too. Does that make them weaker courses because of that fact? In fact -- some of these designs get higher rated simply because of the status conveyed to the old timer who designed the course.

The people who do most of the bomb throwing against the likes of Nicklaus, TF and RJ are usually IMHO people who have not played the course in question or people who have played a very small smattering of courses from years gone by and who still wish to weigh in with their "expanded" knowledge base.

Jim -- you need to see the r-e-c-e-n-t work of the architects you rail against. Take a visit to Outlaw at Desert Mountain and see what Jack did there -- also his newest effort at Hokuli'a in Hawaii. Ditto what TF did with Dallas National and Glenwild. Ditto with Rees Jones did with Olde Kinderhook near Albany. Unless that is -- you're afraid your mind may change. Heaven forbid that.

[klangone]

I have played DNGC and think not much of it (I would rather play at Brook Hollow, Preston Trail, Royal Oaks and many others in the DFW area).  

As said earlier.......I think The Farm and Wade Hampton represent the best of what Fazio has done.  His best work is clearly in the past......I am for simplistic, what the land yields architecture.  He is perfect if you want to create something out of nothing and spend $15 to $20 million.........

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Michaels,

I see nothing wrong with any of the 23 clubs listed ahead of Shinnecock in the Tradition category.

Which ones would you bump out and replace with Shinnecock ?

[DMoriarty]

Matt,

Do you agree that certain architects have a certain style and  approach based on certain principles of design?  

If so, isn't it possible to disagree with their guiding principles, and most everything which results from them?  

Is it necessary to see every C&C course before one decides that one likes or dislikes their style and approach?  

[Matt_Ward]

David M:

You don't have to see all of the courses within an architect's portfolio. But if you simply base a conclusion on an architect's work from simply playing a course or two he designed from say 15-20 years ago and have failed to update yourself through what he is doing in current times I think it becomes obvious that any conclusions you make would be limited to a sampling that is both old and far too limited.

Just remember -- styles and approaches can change for any architect. Sometimes that can add to the appeal of an architect -- at other times it may mean less of a finished product -- some architects live off their name from courses that were done earlier in their career. Keeping current helps ensure a wider lense to review things and provide appropriate perspective IMHO.

I hope this answered your question.

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

I saw you tried to sneak an on-topic thread in there. You might upset the thread hijackers with that kind of mindset!  

Joe

[Willie_Dow]

So, with all your comments, what values do we need to correct our analysis?

[Joel_Stewart]

I see nothing wrong with any of the 23 clubs listed ahead of Shinnecock in the Tradition category.

Pat:
I have to agree with you.  

If I had to pick one or two I would say Cypress Point (which has never hosted an Open or Amateur) and maybe Colonial?

[John_Cullum]

I typically don't give any attention or comment on these published ratings, but I will state that this partcular list rates as "the most useless."

[Carlyle Rood]

Tradition is a valid criterium.  It's no more subjective than the other criteria.  I think we just need to recognize that these rankings are entirely arbitrary and leave it at that.

C

P.S. Cypress Point did host a Walker Cup in 1981.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Its architecture. What is the better course? When some bozo plays the course, if it held the 1898 Procrasta Cup, they think it makes the place. great. I want to know what is the best course. I don't care whether it was built in 1898 or 1998. I think the EXACT SAME PRINCIPLES STILL HOLD. Strategy, fairness, beauty. Are these dated concepts? When people go to Winged Foot or Oakmont, they know who preceded them. It affects their perception.

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