OT: If the PGA TOUR is serious about slow play they should ..........

[Jerry Kluger]

have spotters accompany a number of players during a round and time them in the same manner that they are using a shot clock in the TGL league.  I think it would blow up any claim that the players are playing at a reasonable pace.  Keegan Bradley is painful to watch in a PGA Tour event but in the TGL league he skips all of the fidgeting and fifteen ways of deciding which way a putt will break and I bet you his performance is not that different. 


Any other suggestions of ways to call their bluff?

[Matt Schoolfield]

This is trivially solvable stuff. The mechanics of pace-of-play are understood at a pretty advanced level.

It's entirely obvious that the PGA Tour doesn't want to change, because the ethos of the grinding player (which stroke-play golf has created) is that every shot is the entire game, so it's important to play slowly and deliberately. I find the consistent complaints about pace genuinely hilarious when, with a focus on stroke play, lightning fast greens, and extremely precise equipment, we've effectively designed the game to be played slowly and then complain when it's played that way.

[Jim Sherma]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/golf/articles/c805jp9lpj4o

BBC has an article talking about the yellow card scheme to combat slow play in amateur tournaments run by England Golf. It's based on a series of checkpoints with stroke penalties for failing to make successive checkpoints in the allotted time. Removes the need to monitor each player and each shot. Obviously there are some allocations made for different situations and it's worth clicking through to the full write-up.

[Jim Hoak]

I watched TGL for the first time last night.
I was not offended by the shotclock.
I'd like to hear the argument against this obvious slowplay solution.
I know it would take some rules/judgement as to when the clock begins, exceptions to the rule, etc.  But these seem manageable.

[Jim_Coleman]

   I’m quite sure every state golf association has a slow play policy that is easily enforced at local events. It’s not complicated.

[Kalen Braley]

I watched TGL for the first time last night.
I was not offended by the shotclock.
I'd like to hear the argument against this obvious slowplay solution.
I know it would take some rules/judgement as to when the clock begins, exceptions to the rule, etc.  But these seem manageable.

I think the biggest challenge is the logistical one.

If the PGA tour is going to use a shot clock (and roll it out in a professional manner), I think they would need the following:

- 1 trained official per player following them around the course with shot clock sign.  (If one player goes way left and another way right, one official per group won't cut it)

- At max course capacity if you have on average two groups of 3 on each hole that's: 18 Holes X 6 golfers = 108 trained officials at each tournament at a very bare minimum.  Considering field size of 130-150, that would also mean some would have to do double duty.

Do you ship these officials to every tourney around the country or do you train locals at the tour stop each week?

[Bill Seitz]

I watched TGL for the first time last night.
I was not offended by the shotclock.
I'd like to hear the argument against this obvious slowplay solution.
I know it would take some rules/judgement as to when the clock begins, exceptions to the rule, etc.  But these seem manageable.

I think implementation of a shot clock across all groups may be difficult, and may require a lot of additional Tour personnel and/or volunteers.  Not impossible, and smart people can probably come up with a solution, but may not be worth what it would take.  If we can't have official scorers with each group such that we still need the idiotic scorecard signing ritual at the end of PGA Tour events, adding shot clocks all over the course may not be as easy as it sounds.  If you want to limit it to groups who are out of position, that may be more feasible.

Edit: or what Kalen said.

Also, I think there's a question of whether slow play is really a problem for the Tour.  It's a problem for players, and fans bitch about it, but ending early is a lot worse for the TV people than going over the time window.

[Tim Gavrich]

What takes longer - walking 6,800 yards or walking 7,600 yards?

[Kalen Braley]

What takes longer - walking 6,800 yards or walking 7,600 yards?

If one is walking those distances without mandatory stops, then the answer is obvious.

However, if one is waiting after every shot, its basically negligible.

[Mark Pearce]

What takes longer - walking 6,800 yards or walking 7,600 yards?

How long does it take you to walk 800 yards?  10 minutes max?


And the top pros have fewer stops on average.

[John Kavanaugh]

Please don’t make the assumption that the closest tee to the green you are playing is the furthest tee to the next green.

[Tim Gavrich]

Please don’t make the assumption that the closest tee to the green you are playing is the furthest tee to the next green.

+1000


When you consider backtracks, that 800 yard difference ends up being much larger. Just look at The Old Course and you'll see that the lengthening of the golf course - forced upon it by the evolution of insufficiently regulated golf equipment - has ravaged the flow of play. Nearly every current Open Championship tee requires a walk backwards of some 50 yards, which of course must be re-covered after that next tee shot.


Anyone who paid even remote attention to the 2022 Open knows how terrible the pace of play was the first two days. This is a big part of the reason.

What takes longer - walking 6,800 yards or walking 7,600 yards?

How long does it take you to walk 800 yards?  10 minutes max?


And the top pros have fewer stops on average.

If the first group of the day is suddenly 10 minutes slower, it's affecting the later groups by 20+ minutes more.


The pros had fewer stops when golf courses were hundreds of yards shorter, too.

What takes longer - walking 6,800 yards or walking 7,600 yards?

If one is walking those distances without mandatory stops, then the answer is obvious.

However, if one is waiting after every shot, its basically negligible.

Huh? The aggregate extra walking time is still part of the process of physically moving from 1 tee through to 18 green. And when you multiply it by 100+ players and the various dispersions of the shots that they hit, it obviously takes more time.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Also, I think there's a question of whether slow play is really a problem for the Tour.  It's a problem for players, and fans bitch about it, but ending early is a lot worse for the TV people than going over the time window.

The other thing that is annoying about the TV windows is the golf coverage starting 15 minutes late.  Can't they start the NCAA basketball games 15 minutes earlier?

[Bill Seitz]

Can't they start the NCAA basketball games 15 minutes earlier?

They could, but they don't want to.  It's better for TV is a sporting event runs over its broadcast window than if it ends early.  This is also one of the reasons TV hates match play (not including the Ryder Cup).

[Niall C]

Can't they start the NCAA basketball games 15 minutes earlier?

They could, but they don't want to.  It's better for TV is a sporting event runs over its broadcast window than if it ends early.  This is also one of the reasons TV hates match play (not including the Ryder Cup).

Surely the start-time for the leaders on the final round is calculated by when they are likely to finish. In other words, get them to play quicker and move the tee time accordingly. I'm no TV exec but I assume that's how it works.


Niall 

[Pete_Pittock]

Every group has walking scorers. They should be able to alert officials if their group is out of position or they witress slow play. [size=78%]O[/size]r put an air tag tracker in a pocket of every player.
But the tour would have to up-staff. Every person timing a group is unable to handle other group rules problems.

[JohnVDB]

Can't they start the NCAA basketball games 15 minutes earlier?

They could, but they don't want to.  It's better for TV is a sporting event runs over its broadcast window than if it ends early.  This is also one of the reasons TV hates match play (not including the Ryder Cup).

Surely the start-time for the leaders on the final round is calculated by when they are likely to finish. In other words, get them to play quicker and move the tee time accordingly. I'm no TV exec but I assume that's how it works.


Niall

The network will come to the rules staff and say they want the final putt holed at a certain time. It is usually about 3-5 minutes before they sign off.  That way they can interview the winner and do a quick recap.


The tour staff does their best job of estimating how long play will take and work backwards to find the starting time for the final group.


Interestingly at Pebble last week they finished early and CBS had to fill about 10-15 minutes.  They interviewed both Rory and Shane, showed a lot of highlights etc.


It was said that the group in front of them was put in the clock in the back nine.  There must have been a concern that they might run long. Obviously that group picked up the pace and Rory’s group kept up with them.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

What takes longer - walking 6,800 yards or walking 7,600 yards?

Is that really all you have to offer on this? Jeez. Though last time I think it was 7000 or 7400. Walking time due to distance isn't in the top three reasons why rounds take a long time. Find a new slant, please. It's like 10 minutes; you're not saving an hour. And if they walk that extra yardage and still have to wait on the next tee… it doesn't matter if it was 100 extra yards or 0 or 400.

If one is walking those distances without mandatory stops, then the answer is obvious.However, if one is waiting after every shot, its basically negligible.

YES.

Anyone who paid even remote attention to the 2022 Open knows how terrible the pace of play was the first two days. This is a big part of the reason.

No, it isn't. The Old Course has a bunch of drivable holes, it's often windy, there are pot bunkers, shared fairways, crossovers (around 7/11)… etc. The length of the course is, again, not in the top three reasons.

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